Lying for the sake of life

[Sparko]

How about this verse, then?

"For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness." (2 Thessalonians 2:11–12)

That kind of supports what I have been saying. According to you that means that God is sinning because he is sending them a delusion so they believe a lie. But according to my view, lying is not a sin if it is done for the right reason.

How do YOU explain God deceiving people?

Not sinning, trusting God to take care of us.

Then when your life is in danger why would you think killing in self defense is warranted? Why not just trust God to take care of you instead of killing someone? Why do anything? Why go to a doctor? Just trust God to take care of you.

It says both, actually, and I agree that the motive is important, but we cannot sin, even for a good reason, and please God.

I am saying that if you lie to save a life it is NOT a sin, just like killing to save a life is not sinning.

[lee_merrill]

That kind of supports what I have been saying. According to you that means that God is sinning because he is sending them a delusion so they believe a lie. But according to my view, lying is not a sin if it is done for the right reason.

How do you explain that God cannot lie, then?

How do YOU explain God deceiving people?

Not all deception is sinful, it's not all lying.

Why do anything? Why go to a doctor? Just trust God to take care of you.

Like the old hymn says "Trust and obey, for there's no other way...", obedience goes along with trusting God, and sometimes obedience, and trust, involves action.

I am saying that if you lie to save a life it is NOT a sin, just like killing to save a life is not sinning.

But then God cannot lie, and yet he does pronounce a death sentence at times. So these things are essentially different.

Blessings,
Lee

[Sparko]

How do you explain that God cannot lie, then?


Not all deception is sinful, it's not all lying.


Like the old hymn says "Trust and obey, for there's no other way...", obedience goes along with trusting God, and sometimes obedience, and trust, involves action.


But then God cannot lie, and yet he does pronounce a death sentence at times. So these things are essentially different.

Blessings,
Lee

So why is deception OK and is not lying?

So if I deceive the Nazi into thinking I am not hiding a jew, that is OK? How is that not lying?

[lee_merrill]

So why is deception OK and is not lying?

To be like Paul here:

"... by glory and dishonor, by evil report and good report; as deceivers and yet true..." (2 Co 6:8)

So if I deceive the Nazi into thinking I am not hiding a jew, that is OK? How is that not lying?

You didn't affirm what you know is untrue. How is it that God cannot lie?

Blessings,
Lee

[Sparko]

To be like Paul here:

"... by glory and dishonor, by evil report and good report; as deceivers and yet true..." (2 Co 6:8)


You didn't affirm what you know is untrue. How is it that God cannot lie?

Blessings,
Lee

God can neither lie nor deceive because he is Truth. That is one of his attributes.

That is besides the point.

Lying is deception. You seem to want to separate the two. They are the same. Just different ways of doing the same thing: making someone believe something that is not true.

What gets me is that you think it is better to kill the Nazi to save the life of the jew rather than lie to him, sparing his life and accomplishing the same outcome. That boggles my mind. God would not approve of your unnecessary killing someone to prevent the sin of lying.

Heck Jesus even demonstrated that when he told the Pharisees that even they would break the Law to save a lamb in distress on the sabbath. Sometimes doing something that is normally a sin to prevent a worse sin and to do good is acceptable.

[lee_merrill]

God can neither lie nor deceive because he is Truth. That is one of his attributes.

But what about deception?

"For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness." (2 Th 2:11–12)

That is besides the point.

Not if we are to be imitators of God.

"Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect." (Mt 5:48)

Lying is deception.

Yes, but not all deception is lying.

They are the same. Just different ways of doing the same thing: making someone believe something that is not true.

No, a lie is to attest to something that is not true.

What gets me is that you think it is better to kill the Nazi to save the life of the jew rather than lie to him, sparing his life and accomplishing the same outcome.

But you don't know if you would save the life of the Jew in any case. How much better to obey God in this situation, and not sin, and let him work out the consequences.

Sometimes doing something that is normally a sin to prevent a worse sin and to do good is acceptable.

The ceremonial law may indeed be set aside for a greater good. But we never need to choose between sins, in order to do the will of God. Otherwise, there would be no way of escape from temptation, in such instances.

"And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it." (1 Co 10:13)

Blessings,
Lee

[Sparko]

But what about deception?

"For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness." (2 Th 2:11–12)

I believe that it means that they will deceive themselves because they will follow the antichrist. But if you think that God is deceiving them then you must think that God is LYING because it specifically says they will "BELIEVE THE LIE"

Your entire argument just went up in smoke.

Not if we are to be imitators of God.

"Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect." (Mt 5:48)

Again, if you believe that God is sending a delusion to make people believe a LIE then you have no argument here.

Yes, but not all deception is lying.

Well the one in 2 Thes is because it specifically says it is.

No, a lie is to attest to something that is not true.

Which is deception.

But you don't know if you would save the life of the Jew in any case. How much better to obey God in this situation, and not sin, and let him work out the consequences.

Then you should also never kill in self defense. Instead you should just obey God in the situation and let him work out the consequences. In fact you should never do ANYTHING on your own, but just rely on God to take care of things.

The ceremonial law may indeed be set aside for a greater good. But we never need to choose between sins, in order to do the will of God. Otherwise, there would be no way of escape from temptation, in such instances.

To break the Law WAS to sin.

You keep saying lying is always a sin. I say it is not. Just like killing is not always a sin. If you kill to defend a life it is not a sin. If you lie to save a life it is not a sin. If you break the Law to do good it is not a sin.

[lee_merrill]

I believe that it means that they will deceive themselves because they will follow the antichrist. But if you think that God is deceiving them then you must think that God is LYING because it specifically says they will "BELIEVE THE LIE"

God sends them a powerful delusion, I didn't write that, Scripture writes that, and the purpose is so that they will believe the lie.

Again, if you believe that God is sending a delusion to make people believe a LIE then you have no argument here.

I conclude that deceiving is not always lying, because 1) God does send delusions and 2) God cannot lie.

Well the one in 2 Thes is because it specifically says it is.

No, the deception is so that people will believe the lie, God sends the antichrist so that they will believe in the antichrist. But God never says that the antichrist is the true messiah.

Then you should also never kill in self defense. Instead you should just obey God in the situation and let him work out the consequences. In fact you should never do ANYTHING on your own, but just rely on God to take care of things.

Trust and obey, to trust involves action.

You keep saying lying is always a sin. I say it is not. Just like killing is not always a sin. If you kill to defend a life it is not a sin. If you lie to save a life it is not a sin. If you break the Law to do good it is not a sin.

Then committing adultery for a good cause is not a sin?

Blessings,
Lee

[Sparko]

God sends them a powerful delusion, I didn't write that, Scripture writes that, and the purpose is so that they will believe the lie.


I conclude that deceiving is not always lying, because 1) God does send delusions and 2) God cannot lie.

Then your quote of that verse was not warranted to counter my statement that God doesn't lie or deceive. The verse can't mean that God is deceiving anyone. It means that he allows them to deceive themselves and believe their own lies.
God doesn't deceive.

No, the deception is so that people will believe the lie, God sends the antichrist so that they will believe in the antichrist. But God never says that the antichrist is the true messiah.

and they deceive themselves.

Trust and obey, to trust involves action.

Then why can't the action be to lie to save a life?

Then committing adultery for a good cause is not a sin?

What if it were in defense of a life? Say some maniac tells your wife she has to choose to sleep with him or he will kill her and you?

[lee_merrill]

Then your quote of that verse was not warranted to counter my statement that God doesn't lie or deceive. The verse can't mean that God is deceiving anyone. It means that he allows them to deceive themselves and believe their own lies.

I would like to see this in a commentary.

Source: Pillar NT Commentary

Since they did not receive the truth of the gospel, God sends them confusion so that they cannot distinguish between the truth and the lie and, in the end, they believe the lie as if it were the truth. As strange as this kind of judgment may seem to us, it is in harmony with the biblical witness, which shows the way God gives sinners over to the very sin and error they have embraced (Ps. 80:12–13 [79:12–14]; Rom. 1:24, 26, 28; 11:8; 2 Tim. 4:4). The thought is similar to that in those texts in the OT that describe how God uses malignant spirits to execute his judgments and will even employ the inspiration of false prophets (2 Sam. 24:1/1 Chr. 21:1; 1 Kgdms. 22:19–23; Ezek. 14:9).

© Copyright Original Source

What if it were in defense of a life? Say some maniac tells your wife she has to choose to sleep with him or he will kill her and you.

Or if someone says "say Caesar is Lord" and burn a pinch of incense or I will put to death you and your family?

Blessings,
Lee

[Sparko]

I would like to see this in a commentary.

Source: Pillar NT Commentary

Since they did not receive the truth of the gospel, God sends them confusion so that they cannot distinguish between the truth and the lie and, in the end, they believe the lie as if it were the truth. As strange as this kind of judgment may seem to us, it is in harmony with the biblical witness, which shows the way God gives sinners over to the very sin and error they have embraced (Ps. 80:12–13 [79:12–14]; Rom. 1:24, 26, 28; 11:8; 2 Tim. 4:4). The thought is similar to that in those texts in the OT that describe how God uses malignant spirits to execute his judgments and will even employ the inspiration of false prophets (2 Sam. 24:1/1 Chr. 21:1; 1 Kgdms. 22:19–23; Ezek. 14:9).

© Copyright Original Source

Or if someone says "say Caesar is Lord" and burn a pinch of incense or I will put to death you and your family?

Blessings,
Lee

I already answered that. Jesus specifically said anyone who denies him he will deny before his Father. That isn't about sin, but loyalty.

re 2 Thess 2:11

Barnes' Notes on the Bible
And for this cause - Because they choose error, or their hearts love that more than they do truth. The original reason then of their embracing and adhering to the system was not an arbitrary decree on the part of God, but that they did not love the truth. Hence, he gave them up to this system of error. If a man strongly prefers error to truth, and sin to holiness, it is not wrong to allow him freely to evince his own preference.

God shall send them strong delusion - Greek: "energy of deceit;" a Hebraism, meaning strong deceit, The agency of God is here distinctly recognised, in accordance with the uniform statements of the Scriptures, respecting evil; compare Exodus 7:13; Exodus 9:12; Exodus 10:1, Exodus 10:20, Exodus 10:27; Exodus 11:10; Exodus 14:8. Isaiah 45:7. On the nature of this agency, see the notes on John 12:40. It is not necessary here to suppose that there was any positive influence on the part of God in causing this delusion to come upon them, but all the force of the language will be met, as well as the reasoning of the apostle, by supposing that God withdrew all restraint, and suffered men simply to show that they did not love the truth. God often places people in circumstances to develop their own nature, and it cannot be shown to be wrong that He should do so. If people have no love of the truth, and no desire to be saved, it is not improper that they should be allowed to manifest this. How it happened that they had no "love of the truth," is a different question, to which the remarks of the apostle do not appertain; compare Romans 9:17-18, note; Romans 1:24, note.

That they should believe a lie - This does not affirm that God wished them to believe a lie; nor that He would not have preferred that they should believe the truth; nor that He exerted any direct agency to cause them to believe a lie. It means merely that He left them, because they did not love the truth, to believe what was false, and what would end in their destruction. Can anyone doubt that this constantly occurs in the world? People are left to believe impostors; to trust to false guides; to rely on unfounded information; to credit those who live to delude and betray the innocent; and to follow those who lead them to ruin. God does not interpose by direct power to preserve them. Can anyone doubt this? Yet this is not especially the doctrine of revelation. The fact pertains just as much to the infidel as it does to the believer in Christianity, and he is just as much bound to explain it as the Christian is. It belongs to our world - to us all - and it should not be charged on Christianity as a doctrine pertaining especially to that system.

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Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary
11. for this cause—because "they received not the love of the truth." The best safeguard against error is "the love of the truth."

shall send—Greek, "sends," or "is sending"; the "delusion" is already beginning. God judicially sends hardness of heart on those who have rejected the truth, and gives them up in righteous judgment to Satan's delusions (Isa 6:9, 10; Ro 1:24-26, 28). They first cast off the love of the truth, then God gives them up to Satan's delusions, then they settle down into "believing the lie": an awful climax (1Ki 22:22, 23; Eze 14:9; Job 12:16; Mt 24:5, 11; 1Ti 4:1).

strong delusion—Greek, "the powerful working of error," answering to the energizing "working of Satan" (2Th 2:9); the same expression as is applied to the Holy Ghost's operation in believers: "powerful" or "effectual (energizing) working" (Eph 1:19).

believe a lie—rather, "the lie" which Antichrist tells them, appealing to his miracles as proofs of it … (2Th 2:9).

---

[lee_merrill]

I already answered that. Jesus specifically said anyone who denies him he will deny before his Father. That isn't about sin, but loyalty.

But to be disloyal is a sin, and so it is not permissible here to sin to save your life or the lives of your family members.

Source: Barnes notes

It is not necessary here to suppose that there was any positive influence on the part of God in causing this delusion to come upon them, but all the force of the language will be met, as well as the reasoning of the apostle, by supposing that God withdrew all restraint, and suffered men simply to show that they did not love the truth.

© Copyright Original Source

But this does not correspond with "God sends..."

Source: Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary

shall send—Greek, "sends," or "is sending"; the "delusion" is already beginning. God judicially sends hardness of heart on those who have rejected the truth, and gives them up in righteous judgment to Satan's delusions (Isa 6:9, 10; Ro 1:24-26, 28).

© Copyright Original Source

But this is close to my view here, God sends a powerful delusion. I'm just reading the text.

Blessings,
Lee

[Sparko]

But to be disloyal is a sin, and so it is not permissible here to sin to save your life or the lives of your family members.

Source: Barnes notes

It is not necessary here to suppose that there was any positive influence on the part of God in causing this delusion to come upon them, but all the force of the language will be met, as well as the reasoning of the apostle, by supposing that God withdrew all restraint, and suffered men simply to show that they did not love the truth.

© Copyright Original Source

But this does not correspond with "God sends..."

Source: Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary

shall send—Greek, "sends," or "is sending"; the "delusion" is already beginning. God judicially sends hardness of heart on those who have rejected the truth, and gives them up in righteous judgment to Satan's delusions (Isa 6:9, 10; Ro 1:24-26, 28).

© Copyright Original Source

But this is close to my view here, God sends a powerful delusion. I'm just reading the text.

Blessings,
Lee

So you think God makes someone not believe? That for instance he forced unbelief on Pharoah? It said he hardened his heart.

I don't take that to mean God made Pharoah unable to believe or made him hate God. I think it means that God knew that Pharoah was stubborn and he would not relent even when Moses did miracles for him. The Pharoah hardened his own heart in response and God allowed it. The same with the delusion. The people will willingly believe the Antichrist and so God allows them to delude themselves. He gives them over to their sin and they believe the lie of the antichrist.

[Jedidiah]

Lee and Sparky, you guys have derailed this thread.

[lee_merrill]

So you think God makes someone not believe? That for instance he forced unbelief on Pharoah?

Yes.

Lee and Sparky, you guys have derailed this thread.

We need a new Calvinist thread here!

Blessings,
Lee