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Thread: Lying for the sake of life

  1. #151
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrawnus View Post
    I don't know any logical argument that can take you from "God cannot lie" to "lying is forbidden" and I suspect neither do you.
    That argument basically states that we are to conform ourselves to the Lord; an argument which do accept.

    But the argument in this case revolves around whether the deceit or lie runs against morality. I think this case (the Nazi at the door) brings out the complexity ad ambiguity of the relationship between sin and commandments, and what the commandments really mean for us.

    One point I would add, the very act of hiding the Jew is an act of deception, and so is a form of lie. Anyone who has raised teenagers have dealt with the myriad ways rules can be bent. As soon as the rule is accepted that it is wrong to hide Jews, any skirting of that rule is really breaking the rule. If one does not recognize the validity of the rule (of hiding Jews), then the discussion revolves around whether an unjust law or rule is really a law.

    I believe that this discussion is really a discussion on the natural law, not sure that any other approach would leave us with what would otherwise be a recognized morality. So Schindler, who used lying, is either a monster if we accept the lie as sin, or a hero to emulate if that lie is not sin. We know G-d does not ever consider sin to be n appropriate response, but I do think Schindler responded in a moral manner and so is a moral exemplar for his action.

  2. Amen Teallaura, Thoughtful Monk amen'd this post.
  3. #152
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simplicio View Post
    That argument basically states that we are to conform ourselves to the Lord; an argument which do accept.

    But the argument in this case revolves around whether the deceit or lie runs against morality. I think this case (the Nazi at the door) brings out the complexity ad ambiguity of the relationship between sin and commandments, and what the commandments really mean for us.

    One point I would add, the very act of hiding the Jew is an act of deception, and so is a form of lie. Anyone who has raised teenagers have dealt with the myriad ways rules can be bent. As soon as the rule is accepted that it is wrong to hide Jews, any skirting of that rule is really breaking the rule. If one does not recognize the validity of the rule (of hiding Jews), then the discussion revolves around whether an unjust law or rule is really a law.

    I believe that this discussion is really a discussion on the natural law, not sure that any other approach would leave us with what would otherwise be a recognized morality. So Schindler, who used lying, is either a monster if we accept the lie as sin, or a hero to emulate if that lie is not sin. We know G-d does not ever consider sin to be n appropriate response, but I do think Schindler responded in a moral manner and so is a moral exemplar for his action.
    I never thought of that but you are correct. Hiding the Jew would be a form of deception in itself.

    My view is that sin is not so much about the ACTION but the motivation behind it. Jesus said that just looking at a woman in lust is a sin. Looking at her isn't the sin, it is the intention behind that look. Also about breaking the Law to work on the Sabbath to save a lamb is an example given.

    Taking a life isn't a sin. It is the motivation behind it. If you take a life out of bad intentions, it is murder. If you take a life out of good intentions (saving another life or lives) then it is not murder and not a sin. Taking a life by accident is not murder or a sin. Deceiving for greed or selfishness is a sin. Deceiving to save the life of another is not a sin.

    That is how I look at it.

  4. Amen Jedidiah, Christianbookworm amen'd this post.
  5. #153
    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    That is more than lying to save a life, that is taking a Oath and denying Christ.
    As I understand it, all they needed to do was to say "Caesar is lord" and burn a pinch of incense. No oath was involved.

    If you kill when you don't need to then that is murder too right?
    The death penalty is killing that is not in self-defense, though.

    Lying could be the same: Either lying is still a sin no matter what but it is allowable to save a life (like Rahab did) or it is not a sin a all if done in self-defense. The motivation is different.
    Or it is a sin, and we are not to sin. We never need to sin in order to do the will of God.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

  6. #154
    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    I never thought of that but you are correct. Hiding the Jew would be a form of deception in itself.
    But not all deception is lying, Jesus pretended to be someone else to the disciples going to Emmaus.

    If you take a life out of bad intentions, it is murder.
    No, it's actually killing someone who does not deserve to die.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

  7. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    But not all deception is lying, Jesus pretended to be someone else to the disciples going to Emmaus.


    No, it's actually killing someone who does not deserve to die.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    I think that is the first time I've heard that about the road to Emmaus.

    I don't think Jesus was being deceptive, nor disguising himself to appear to be something different. I think the point is that we do not always recognize the reality before us. One illustration is Jesus himself, how many really recognized who and what he was by using their senses, and even their rational thought? Jesus was fully human, and looked to be human in every way.

  8. Amen Teallaura amen'd this post.
  9. #156
    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrawnus View Post
    I don't know any logical argument that can take you from "God cannot lie" to "lying is forbidden" and I suspect neither do you.
    "Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children..." (Eph. 5:1)

    "Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect." (Mt 5:48)

    I think these and similar verses would lead us to conclude that we also should not lie.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

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    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simplicio View Post
    I don't think Jesus was being deceptive, nor disguising himself to appear to be something different.
    "While they were talking and discussing, Jesus Himself approached and began traveling with them. But their eyes were prevented from recognizing Him." (Lk 24:15–16)

    So I think we see here that God is acting so that Jesus would not be recognized. We also have the example of Samuel telling Saul that he is going to offer a sacrifice, instead of telling him that he is about to anoint his successor.

    "But Samuel said, 'How can I go? When Saul hears of it, he will kill me.' And the LORD said, 'Take a heifer with you and say, ‘I have come to sacrifice to the LORD.’ You shall invite Jesse to the sacrifice, and I will show you what you shall do; and you shall anoint for Me the one whom I designate to you.' " (1 Sam. 16:2-3)

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

  11. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    "While they were talking and discussing, Jesus Himself approached and began traveling with them. But their eyes were prevented from recognizing Him." (Lk 24:15–16)

    So I think we see here that God is acting so that Jesus would not be recognized. We also have the example of Samuel telling Saul that he is going to offer a sacrifice, instead of telling him that he is about to anoint his successor.

    "But Samuel said, 'How can I go? When Saul hears of it, he will kill me.' And the LORD said, 'Take a heifer with you and say, ‘I have come to sacrifice to the LORD.’ You shall invite Jesse to the sacrifice, and I will show you what you shall do; and you shall anoint for Me the one whom I designate to you.' " (1 Sam. 16:2-3)

    Blessings,
    Lee
    I wonder if you are placing the Lord in the position of being deceptive.

    Was some cognitive ability restrained (which they had previously) by the Lord, or was something lacking in the men themselves? Their recognition of who and what was before them came only in conjunction with reading of scripture. I am not sure we can understand much about Jesus apart from scripture, and the intensely personal act of breaking bread with Jesus triggered the recognition. The road to Emmaus passage is about faith, recognizing deity in someone fully human yet who died and rose. The resurrected Jesus did not operate according to the usual rules by which you and I do, some say he used his divinity, others posit that the nature of the resurrected body, the human nature, is different in certain ways.

    Since it is faith which determines what we have, where we land, and how we can operate after we pass through the grave, it follows that faith also affects how we apprehend and comprehend those things of heaven while we are on this side of the grave. And it was the understanding they had of the faith which was imperfect: most of the disciples dispersed at the death of Jesus.

    Not sure if this makes sense or not.

  12. #159
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    But not all deception is lying, Jesus pretended to be someone else to the disciples going to Emmaus.


    No, it's actually killing someone who does not deserve to die.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    So you think God can be deceptive??? Besides God said not to deceive anyone:
    Leviticus 19:11 “‘Do not steal. “‘Do not lie. “‘Do not deceive one another."

    You are doing a LOT of wiggling here Lee to avoid facing the facts. It is the motivation behind the action that is the problem not the action itself.

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    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simplicio View Post
    I wonder if you are placing the Lord in the position of being deceptive.
    Just trying to read it from the book.

    "And if the prophet is enticed to utter a prophecy, I the LORD have enticed that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand against him and destroy him from among my people Israel." (Eze 14:9)

    Thus I conclude that lying is affirming a statement that we know is not true, for God cannot lie.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko
    So you think God can be deceptive??? Besides God said not to deceive anyone:
    Leviticus 19:11 “‘Do not steal. “‘Do not lie. “‘Do not deceive one another."
    Maybe in this sense?

    "Their tongue is a deadly arrow;
    It speaks deceit;
    With his mouth one speaks peace to his neighbor,
    But inwardly he sets an ambush for him." (Je 9:8)

    In the sense of hiding evil in the heart.

    You are doing a LOT of wiggling here Lee to avoid facing the facts. It is the motivation behind the action that is the problem not the action itself.
    So the end justifies the means?

    Blessings,
    Lee
    Last edited by lee_merrill; 01-12-2018 at 07:16 PM.
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

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