Announcement

Collapse

Theology 201 Guidelines

This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?

While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.

Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.

Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.

Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

Lying for the sake of life

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
    You like Vegemite but not olives?
    Yes.
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
    sigpic
    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

    Comment


    • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
      Yes.
      I like the bitterness of olives but not in black coffee.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
        I like the bitterness of olives but not in black coffee.
        Bitterness isn't why I don't like olives either. They just taste awful to me.

        My morning coffee is always black & bitter.
        Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

        Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
        sigpic
        I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

        Comment


        • Strong black coffee . . . ahhhhh yes.
          Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

          Comment


          • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
            Yes.
            Okay, interesting...
            "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

            "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

            My Personal Blog

            My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

            Quill Sword

            Comment


            • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
              Huge difference between protecting your own life and protecting someone else's.
              I don't agree.
              "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

              There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
                I don't agree.
                Protecting someone else's life often puts one's own life at risk.
                Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                sigpic
                I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                Comment


                • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                  Protecting someone else's life often puts one's own life at risk.
                  yes
                  "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

                  There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by lepidopter View Post
                    Hi there.
                    I have a question that was brought up in my ethics course.
                    The general principle of those taking this course is that there is a prioritization of the laws of God.
                    Such as, preservation of life takes priority over the prohibition of theft if one needs to commit theft in order to preserve their own life or those to whom one might owe a responsibility.

                    I wonder what some of your thoughts might be regarding this method, especially when presented with the following statement:
                    "Corrie ten Boom was wrong to lie to the Nazis about the Jews she was hiding."

                    Clearly, falsehood was committed, and yet lives were preserved because of ten Boom's actions.

                    Would love to get general conversation going about prioritization and suspension of the laws as well!
                    Lying = always wrong in all circumstances, bar none. So a direct and unambiguous untruth, stated as truth, is always completely wrong.

                    Equivocation, mental reservation, evasion, and other forms of “passive misdirection” = never desirable, but permissible. provided there is proportionately severe cause.

                    John Wesley, and Immanuel Kant, were, like St Augustine of Hippo (whose view became the standard Catholic one for Latin Christendom), absolutely opposed to the use of lies. They recognised no exceptions: to lie, is invariably and always wrong, it is under no circumstances permissible.

                    I totally agree with this view. That in no sense implies any judgement on Corrie ten Boom: I think her decision to lie (if in fact she did lie) was mistaken, but that is as far as I’m prepared to go. One can have opinions about people’s actions, but can never presume to judge their souls. That is for God alone to do. I don’t like making decisions about hypothetical situations; one is in the position one is in, when one is in it, and one should not trouble oneself with empty hypotheses about what one would do if one were in a situation one is not.

                    STM that - provided one is conscientious and prudent, and there is sufficient cause - mental reservation is tolerable, permissible, and legitimate as Christian behaviour. But one should always, whenever possible, be strictly truthful, and not resort to mental reservations unless it can be prudently foreseen that telling the truth would be sinful. We should be truthful to honour God, and not primarily because of any concern for “transparency”.

                    This is a big subject.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
                      It is clear that solid Christians differ on this question. I certainly believe that God is sovereign and He can and will defend anyone if that is what His will is for that person. It is quite possible that a lie by a believer may be the way He chooses to save someone, just as was the case with Rahab's lie.
                      That would not make the lie itself a good thing. God has no need of our sins to do His Will.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Rushing Jaws View Post
                        That would not make the lie itself a good thing. God has no need of our sins to do His Will.
                        Oh, I very much agree that God does not need them, but throughout scripture God uses sinful actions of people to accomplish His will.
                        Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Rushing Jaws View Post
                          Lying = always wrong in all circumstances, bar none. So a direct and unambiguous untruth, stated as truth, is always completely wrong.

                          Equivocation, mental reservation, evasion, and other forms of “passive misdirection” = never desirable, but permissible. provided there is proportionately severe cause.

                          John Wesley, and Immanuel Kant, were, like St Augustine of Hippo (whose view became the standard Catholic one for Latin Christendom), absolutely opposed to the use of lies. They recognised no exceptions: to lie, is invariably and always wrong, it is under no circumstances permissible.

                          I totally agree with this view. That in no sense implies any judgement on Corrie ten Boom: I think her decision to lie (if in fact she did lie) was mistaken, but that is as far as I’m prepared to go. One can have opinions about people’s actions, but can never presume to judge their souls. That is for God alone to do. I don’t like making decisions about hypothetical situations; one is in the position one is in, when one is in it, and one should not trouble oneself with empty hypotheses about what one would do if one were in a situation one is not.

                          STM that - provided one is conscientious and prudent, and there is sufficient cause - mental reservation is tolerable, permissible, and legitimate as Christian behaviour. But one should always, whenever possible, be strictly truthful, and not resort to mental reservations unless it can be prudently foreseen that telling the truth would be sinful. We should be truthful to honour God, and not primarily because of any concern for “transparency”.

                          This is a big subject.
                          Yes it is a big subject, one which has been debated for centuries. But I have a question. Usually when this topic is discussed, the Decalogue is brought up, and the relationship of sin to the commandemnts.

                          What exactly is "false witness"? (Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor, the eighth or ninth commandment)

                          Comment


                          • In context it refers specifically to court proceedings, however, the logical extension to all dealings with others is supported with other Scripture. Conversely, incidences of lying for good purpose are also found in Scripture without apparent recrimination.

                            If you truly believe that all lying under any circumstance is sin, then it is. If you truly believe that lying to save the life (lives) of another is not sin, then it isn't.

                            Paul teaches us that all that is not faith is sin - God does not judge us by the letter of the Law - that was upheld by Jesus. He judges us by what we do with what we know - and how we live up to our best understanding of His word. Where there is room for legitimate difference of opinion, it is up to us to understand as best we can and live accordingly. This is not license to ignore things we don't like or a free pass on things we find difficult.
                            "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                            "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                            My Personal Blog

                            My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                            Quill Sword

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                              In context it refers specifically to court proceedings, however, the logical extension to all dealings with others is supported with other Scripture. Conversely, incidences of lying for good purpose are also found in Scripture without apparent recrimination.

                              If you truly believe that all lying under any circumstance is sin, then it is. If you truly believe that lying to save the life (lives) of another is not sin, then it isn't.

                              Paul teaches us that all that is not faith is sin - God does not judge us by the letter of the Law - that was upheld by Jesus. He judges us by what we do with what we know - and how we live up to our best understanding of His word. Where there is room for legitimate difference of opinion, it is up to us to understand as best we can and live accordingly. This is not license to ignore things we don't like or a free pass on things we find difficult.
                              I wonder if this explanation leaves the door open to antinomianism. The topic of lying for good ends is one that seems to defy clear and concise answers, maybe it shows the complexity of the faith. And this is probably the first time I have seen it discussed without the eighth commandment being brought in, which is why I brought it up (if someone else brought it in I missed it).

                              What I do know is that the "heroes" of the holocaust, were not what we necessarily see as good and holy people, Oskar Schindler comes to mind; each case relied on deceit and subterfuge, if not outright lying. But I don't think any parent would accept the distinction between lying and the finer shades of avoiding the lie from their teenage children.

                              Not sure how closely we can cooperate with evil without some of it rubbing off on us; I doubt if many Christians would accept that the conscience as the guide regards to racism or abortion. And I have to admit that I have stated the exact thing in the past which you did on the conscience.

                              Comment


                              • No, as I stated, it's not a free pass and doesn't apply to subjects which are clear.
                                "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                                "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                                My Personal Blog

                                My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                                Quill Sword

                                Comment

                                widgetinstance 221 (Related Threads) skipped due to lack of content & hide_module_if_empty option.
                                Working...
                                X