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Lying for the sake of life

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  • Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
    I don't know any logical argument that can take you from "God cannot lie" to "lying is forbidden" and I suspect neither do you.
    That argument basically states that we are to conform ourselves to the Lord; an argument which do accept.

    But the argument in this case revolves around whether the deceit or lie runs against morality. I think this case (the Nazi at the door) brings out the complexity ad ambiguity of the relationship between sin and commandments, and what the commandments really mean for us.

    One point I would add, the very act of hiding the Jew is an act of deception, and so is a form of lie. Anyone who has raised teenagers have dealt with the myriad ways rules can be bent. As soon as the rule is accepted that it is wrong to hide Jews, any skirting of that rule is really breaking the rule. If one does not recognize the validity of the rule (of hiding Jews), then the discussion revolves around whether an unjust law or rule is really a law.

    I believe that this discussion is really a discussion on the natural law, not sure that any other approach would leave us with what would otherwise be a recognized morality. So Schindler, who used lying, is either a monster if we accept the lie as sin, or a hero to emulate if that lie is not sin. We know G-d does not ever consider sin to be n appropriate response, but I do think Schindler responded in a moral manner and so is a moral exemplar for his action.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by simplicio View Post
      That argument basically states that we are to conform ourselves to the Lord; an argument which do accept.

      But the argument in this case revolves around whether the deceit or lie runs against morality. I think this case (the Nazi at the door) brings out the complexity ad ambiguity of the relationship between sin and commandments, and what the commandments really mean for us.

      One point I would add, the very act of hiding the Jew is an act of deception, and so is a form of lie. Anyone who has raised teenagers have dealt with the myriad ways rules can be bent. As soon as the rule is accepted that it is wrong to hide Jews, any skirting of that rule is really breaking the rule. If one does not recognize the validity of the rule (of hiding Jews), then the discussion revolves around whether an unjust law or rule is really a law.

      I believe that this discussion is really a discussion on the natural law, not sure that any other approach would leave us with what would otherwise be a recognized morality. So Schindler, who used lying, is either a monster if we accept the lie as sin, or a hero to emulate if that lie is not sin. We know G-d does not ever consider sin to be n appropriate response, but I do think Schindler responded in a moral manner and so is a moral exemplar for his action.
      I never thought of that but you are correct. Hiding the Jew would be a form of deception in itself.

      My view is that sin is not so much about the ACTION but the motivation behind it. Jesus said that just looking at a woman in lust is a sin. Looking at her isn't the sin, it is the intention behind that look. Also about breaking the Law to work on the Sabbath to save a lamb is an example given.

      Taking a life isn't a sin. It is the motivation behind it. If you take a life out of bad intentions, it is murder. If you take a life out of good intentions (saving another life or lives) then it is not murder and not a sin. Taking a life by accident is not murder or a sin. Deceiving for greed or selfishness is a sin. Deceiving to save the life of another is not a sin.

      That is how I look at it.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
        That is more than lying to save a life, that is taking a Oath and denying Christ.
        As I understand it, all they needed to do was to say "Caesar is lord" and burn a pinch of incense. No oath was involved.

        If you kill when you don't need to then that is murder too right?
        The death penalty is killing that is not in self-defense, though.

        Lying could be the same: Either lying is still a sin no matter what but it is allowable to save a life (like Rahab did) or it is not a sin a all if done in self-defense. The motivation is different.
        Or it is a sin, and we are not to sin. We never need to sin in order to do the will of God.

        Blessings,
        Lee
        "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
          I never thought of that but you are correct. Hiding the Jew would be a form of deception in itself.
          But not all deception is lying, Jesus pretended to be someone else to the disciples going to Emmaus.

          If you take a life out of bad intentions, it is murder.
          No, it's actually killing someone who does not deserve to die.

          Blessings,
          Lee
          "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

          Comment


          • Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
            But not all deception is lying, Jesus pretended to be someone else to the disciples going to Emmaus.


            No, it's actually killing someone who does not deserve to die.

            Blessings,
            Lee
            I think that is the first time I've heard that about the road to Emmaus.

            I don't think Jesus was being deceptive, nor disguising himself to appear to be something different. I think the point is that we do not always recognize the reality before us. One illustration is Jesus himself, how many really recognized who and what he was by using their senses, and even their rational thought? Jesus was fully human, and looked to be human in every way.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
              I don't know any logical argument that can take you from "God cannot lie" to "lying is forbidden" and I suspect neither do you.
              "Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children..." (Eph. 5:1)

              "Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect." (Mt 5:48)

              I think these and similar verses would lead us to conclude that we also should not lie.

              Blessings,
              Lee
              "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

              Comment


              • Originally posted by simplicio View Post
                I don't think Jesus was being deceptive, nor disguising himself to appear to be something different.
                "While they were talking and discussing, Jesus Himself approached and began traveling with them. But their eyes were prevented from recognizing Him." (Lk 24:15–16)

                So I think we see here that God is acting so that Jesus would not be recognized. We also have the example of Samuel telling Saul that he is going to offer a sacrifice, instead of telling him that he is about to anoint his successor.

                "But Samuel said, 'How can I go? When Saul hears of it, he will kill me.' And the LORD said, 'Take a heifer with you and say, ‘I have come to sacrifice to the LORD.’ You shall invite Jesse to the sacrifice, and I will show you what you shall do; and you shall anoint for Me the one whom I designate to you.' " (1 Sam. 16:2-3)

                Blessings,
                Lee
                "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                Comment


                • Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                  "While they were talking and discussing, Jesus Himself approached and began traveling with them. But their eyes were prevented from recognizing Him." (Lk 24:15–16)

                  So I think we see here that God is acting so that Jesus would not be recognized. We also have the example of Samuel telling Saul that he is going to offer a sacrifice, instead of telling him that he is about to anoint his successor.

                  "But Samuel said, 'How can I go? When Saul hears of it, he will kill me.' And the LORD said, 'Take a heifer with you and say, ‘I have come to sacrifice to the LORD.’ You shall invite Jesse to the sacrifice, and I will show you what you shall do; and you shall anoint for Me the one whom I designate to you.' " (1 Sam. 16:2-3)

                  Blessings,
                  Lee
                  I wonder if you are placing the Lord in the position of being deceptive.

                  Was some cognitive ability restrained (which they had previously) by the Lord, or was something lacking in the men themselves? Their recognition of who and what was before them came only in conjunction with reading of scripture. I am not sure we can understand much about Jesus apart from scripture, and the intensely personal act of breaking bread with Jesus triggered the recognition. The road to Emmaus passage is about faith, recognizing deity in someone fully human yet who died and rose. The resurrected Jesus did not operate according to the usual rules by which you and I do, some say he used his divinity, others posit that the nature of the resurrected body, the human nature, is different in certain ways.

                  Since it is faith which determines what we have, where we land, and how we can operate after we pass through the grave, it follows that faith also affects how we apprehend and comprehend those things of heaven while we are on this side of the grave. And it was the understanding they had of the faith which was imperfect: most of the disciples dispersed at the death of Jesus.

                  Not sure if this makes sense or not.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                    But not all deception is lying, Jesus pretended to be someone else to the disciples going to Emmaus.


                    No, it's actually killing someone who does not deserve to die.

                    Blessings,
                    Lee
                    So you think God can be deceptive??? Besides God said not to deceive anyone:
                    Leviticus 19:11 “‘Do not steal. “‘Do not lie. “‘Do not deceive one another."

                    You are doing a LOT of wiggling here Lee to avoid facing the facts. It is the motivation behind the action that is the problem not the action itself.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by simplicio View Post
                      I wonder if you are placing the Lord in the position of being deceptive.
                      Just trying to read it from the book.

                      "And if the prophet is enticed to utter a prophecy, I the LORD have enticed that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand against him and destroy him from among my people Israel." (Eze 14:9)

                      Thus I conclude that lying is affirming a statement that we know is not true, for God cannot lie.

                      Originally posted by Sparko
                      So you think God can be deceptive??? Besides God said not to deceive anyone:
                      Leviticus 19:11 “‘Do not steal. “‘Do not lie. “‘Do not deceive one another."
                      Maybe in this sense?

                      "Their tongue is a deadly arrow;
                      It speaks deceit;
                      With his mouth one speaks peace to his neighbor,
                      But inwardly he sets an ambush for him." (Je 9:8)

                      In the sense of hiding evil in the heart.

                      You are doing a LOT of wiggling here Lee to avoid facing the facts. It is the motivation behind the action that is the problem not the action itself.
                      So the end justifies the means?

                      Blessings,
                      Lee
                      Last edited by lee_merrill; 01-12-2018, 02:16 PM.
                      "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                        Originally Posted by Sparko
                        So you think God can be deceptive??? Besides God said not to deceive anyone:
                        Leviticus 19:11 “‘Do not steal. “‘Do not lie. “‘Do not deceive one another."
                        Maybe in this sense?

                        "Their tongue is a deadly arrow;
                        It speaks deceit;
                        With his mouth one speaks peace to his neighbor,
                        But inwardly he sets an ambush for him." (Je 9:8)

                        In the sense of hiding evil in the heart.


                        So the end justifies the means?

                        Blessings,
                        Lee

                        Lee, God said not to deceive. Being "deceptive" is deceiving. Deceiving is a form of lying.

                        Yet you said that God can be deceptive. And you don't see a problem there?

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                          Lee, God said not to deceive. Being "deceptive" is deceiving. Deceiving is a form of lying.
                          Well deceiving can be lying, but a fake football handoff is not lying.

                          Yet you said that God can be deceptive. And you don't see a problem there?
                          I'm just reading it from the book, how do you explain (for instance) God telling Samuel to tell Saul that he was going to make a sacrifice (1 Sam. 16:1-5)? And you haven't answered my question, does the end justify the means?

                          Blessings,
                          Lee
                          "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                            Well deceiving can be lying, but a fake football handoff is not lying.


                            I'm just reading it from the book, how do you explain (for instance) God telling Samuel to tell Saul that he was going to make a sacrifice (1 Sam. 16:1-5)? And you haven't answered my question, does the end justify the means?

                            Blessings,
                            Lee
                            Deception is the INTENTION to get someone to believe something false so yes it is a lie. A fake football handoff is a lie. It deceives the other team into thinking that a handoff was made when it was not. That's a lie.

                            1 Sam 16 - as far as I can tell he was not deceiving or lying. He went and made a sacrifice.

                            Ends justify means. sometimes. If taking someone's life who is attacking you then doing something that is normally bad (killing) is justified. If lying to save a life, then yes it is justified. If deception can save a life then yes it is justified. What is more important: Telling the Truth or Saving a Life?

                            In fact, doesn't the bible say "do not bear false witness" rather than "do not lie?" because bearing false witness is telling a lie with the intention to harm someone, not help them.
                            Last edited by Sparko; 01-17-2018, 10:39 AM.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                              Lee, God said not to deceive. Being "deceptive" is deceiving. Deceiving is a form of lying.

                              Yet you said that God can be deceptive. And you don't see a problem there?
                              How do you get "do not deceive anybody" from "do not deceive one another"?
                              "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

                              There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                                Deception is the INTENTION to get someone to believe something false so yes it is a lie.
                                How about this verse, then?

                                "For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness." (2 Thessalonians 2:11–12)

                                Ends justify means. sometimes.
                                This goes against all moral wisdom that I have heard of.

                                What is more important: Telling the Truth or Saving a Life?
                                Not sinning, trusting God to take care of us.

                                In fact, doesn't the bible say "do not bear false witness" rather than "do not lie?" because bearing false witness is telling a lie with the intention to harm someone, not help them.
                                It says both, actually, and I agree that the motive is important, but we cannot sin, even for a good reason, and please God.

                                "Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect." (Mt. 5:48)

                                Blessings,
                                Lee
                                "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                                Comment

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