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Lying for the sake of life

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  • #61
    Originally posted by mossrose View Post
    I count 13 kids in that classroom, and the guy shot 6 of them.

    She didn't have to say "they aren't here". She could have said, "Do you see anybody besides me?" or some such.

    I will not change my belief that telling the truth is the right way. Always.

    And let God, in His sovreignty, take care of the consequences.
    While this isn't a comment on the OP's question, I wanted to point out that the response of "Do you see anybody besides me?" is the functional equivalent of admitting someone else is there, if the inquirer is an astute person. I interview and interrogate people for a living, and that's one thing I've learned: you have to nail them down to a direct affirmation or direct denial. People who wish to be evasive will usually shy away from lying directly, so they won't really answer the question. It boils down to this: if I ask you a 'yes or no' question and your answer is anything other than 'no', then it is the functional equivalent of 'yes'. There are sometimes occasions where the person's answer meant 'no', but it's not safe to assume that.

    This has implications for the discussion at hand. If you are trying to conceal information from an experienced interrogator, you'll have to lie, or they'll know.
    "If you believe, take the first step, it leads to Jesus Christ. If you don't believe, take the first step all the same, for you are bidden to take it. No one wants to know about your faith or unbelief, your orders are to perform the act of obedience on the spot. Then you will find yourself in the situation where faith becomes possible and where faith exists in the true sense of the word." - Dietrich Bonhoeffer, The Cost of Discipleship

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    • #62
      Originally posted by myth View Post
      While this isn't a comment on the OP's question, I wanted to point out that the response of "Do you see anybody besides me?" is the functional equivalent of admitting someone else is there, if the inquirer is an astute person. I interview and interrogate people for a living, and that's one thing I've learned: you have to nail them down to a direct affirmation or direct denial. People who wish to be evasive will usually shy away from lying directly, so they won't really answer the question. It boils down to this: if I ask you a 'yes or no' question and your answer is anything other than 'no', then it is the functional equivalent of 'yes'. There are sometimes occasions where the person's answer meant 'no', but it's not safe to assume that.

      This has implications for the discussion at hand. If you are trying to conceal information from an experienced interrogator, you'll have to lie, or they'll know.
      I doubt the guy with the gun was thinking along those lines at that moment.

      And as I said, let God handle the consequences of you not lying.


      Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

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      • #63
        Originally posted by mossrose View Post
        I doubt the guy with the gun was thinking along those lines at that moment.

        And as I said, let God handle the consequences of you not lying.
        Yeah, but the Nazi's would have been.

        As a DIS, I caught many lies based on the evasive half truth. That said, it can be done successfully but you have to really plan for it. A straight lie is easier to pull off - but it also requires some preparation.
        "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

        "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

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        • #64
          But can God lie? No, he cannot (Titus 1:2). This implies that lying, any lying, is a sin.

          "I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth." (1 Jn 2:21)

          "No lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless." (Re 14:5)

          Blessings,
          Lee
          "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

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          • #65
            For those who say they would not lie to save a life, let me ask you to think about this:

            When was the last time you lied and what was it for? Was it for something as important as saving a life? Or was it something petty like not wanting to hurt someone's feelings, or just to save face in something that could be embarrassing?

            So if you will lie for something so trivial, why would you not lie for something that could save a person's life?

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            • #66
              As I already stated:


              Originally posted by mossrose View Post

              I do not know what I would do if placed in a situation where a lie might save a life. I will not borrow grace and say with any certainty that I would not lie. But until I am there, I am sticking to my belief that God is sovereign and He can and will defend anyone if that is what His will for that person is, without a lie being told by a believer.


              Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

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              • #67
                Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                So if you will lie for something so trivial, why would you not lie for something that could save a person's life?
                Because lying is a sin? I have sinned, and lied before, but Jesus could not lie on earth (Titus 1:2), and he is our perfect example. God can deliver us, God will deliver us, as Mossy said, if we choose not to sin.

                Blessings,
                Lee
                "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                  Because lying is a sin? I have sinned, and lied before, but Jesus could not lie on earth (Titus 1:2), and he is our perfect example. God can deliver us, God will deliver us, as Mossy said, if we choose not to sin.

                  Blessings,
                  Lee
                  My point is that, yes lying is a sin. But we all do it. And for very trivial reasons. And we will continue to do it. Even though we know it is wrong. Nobody stops lying. It is such a basic impulse of our sin nature that we all do it. Except Darfius. He stopped sinning altogether apparently

                  So given that we all do it, doesn't it make sense that doing it for a good reason makes more sense than doing it for a trivial one? So anyone that says they won't do it to save a life, while continuing to do it for trivial reasons needs to have a hard look at themselves. They are basically lying to themselves, telling themselves they are more honorable than they really are. And every lie is deliberate. Nobody lies in error. To do that is to just be wrong which is not a sin.

                  I for one admit I still lie and it is usually for stupid reasons, like saving face, or even white lies to keep from hurting someone's feelings. So I would indeed lie to save a human life from evil people. I would consider it a good thing. If God wants to punish me for doing that, what is he going to do to me and you all for lying about trivial crap?

                  Isn't the sin in the bible actually "bearing false witness" though? As in making false accusations?

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                    My point is that, yes lying is a sin. But we all do it. And for very trivial reasons...
                    Honey, do you think this dress makes my butt look big?
                    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                      Honey, do you think this dress makes my butt look big?
                      And his final words were inscribed on his tombstone:


                      I'm always still in trouble again

                      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                      "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

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                      • #71
                        Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                        And his final words were inscribed on his tombstone:

                        [ATTACH=CONFIG]24890[/ATTACH]
                        So the correct answer would be "No, the dress doesn't make your butt look big" and just leave off that last part.

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                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                          So the correct answer would be "No, the dress doesn't make your butt look big" and just leave off that last part.
                          Or, as Jeff Foxworthy replies, "Honey, why don't you just go ahead and kick me in the stomach* and get it over with"



                          *I often wondered if he really meant 'stomach', or if that was the 'G' version.
                          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

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                          • #73
                            I am a sinner, saved by grace. I still sin, because I struggle with my sinful nature. I have lied, and I'm certain I will again.

                            But I will not say that lying for any reason, no matter how trivial or how important in our own eyes, is right.


                            Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

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                            • #74
                              Originally posted by mossrose View Post
                              I am a sinner, saved by grace. I still sin, because I struggle with my sinful nature. I have lied, and I'm certain I will again.

                              But I will not say that lying for any reason, no matter how trivial or how important in our own eyes, is right.
                              All kidding aside, I'd have a really hard time coming up with a scenario that would justify me lying.
                              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

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                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                                My point is that, yes lying is a sin. But we all do it. And for very trivial reasons. And we will continue to do it. Even though we know it is wrong. Nobody stops lying.
                                Well, God doesn't lie! By his grace he can enable us to do the same.

                                So given that we all do it, doesn't it make sense that doing it for a good reason makes more sense than doing it for a trivial one?
                                "Aim for perfection", said Paul (2 Cor. 13:11), "be perfect, just as your heavenly Father is perfect", said Jesus (Mt. 5:38).

                                If God wants to punish me for doing that, what is he going to do to me and you all for lying about trivial crap?
                                This is one reason I believe in purgatory:

                                “But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” (Re 21:8)

                                Isn't the sin in the bible actually "bearing false witness" though? As in making false accusations?
                                It has that sense in the ten commandments, but even in the OT there is the sense of plain lying:

                                Then he said, “At this season next year you will embrace a son.” And she said, “No, my lord, O man of God, do not lie to your maidservant.” (2 Ki 4:16)

                                Blessings,
                                Lee
                                Last edited by lee_merrill; 11-13-2017, 05:19 PM.
                                "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

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