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This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?

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Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.

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Lying for the sake of life

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  • #181
    Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
    God sends them a powerful delusion, I didn't write that, Scripture writes that, and the purpose is so that they will believe the lie.
    [SNIP]

    Blessings,
    Lee
    Last edited by Rushing Jaws; 01-25-2018, 05:47 PM.

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    • #182
      Originally posted by Sparko View Post
      So you think God makes someone not believe? That for instance he forced unbelief on Pharoah? It said he hardened his heart.

      I don't take that to mean God made Pharoah unable to believe or made him hate God. I think it means that God knew that Pharoah was stubborn and he would not relent even when Moses did miracles for him. The Pharoah hardened his own heart in response and God allowed it. The same with the delusion. The people will willingly believe the Antichrist and so God allows them to delude themselves. He gives them over to their sin and they believe the lie of the antichrist.

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      • #183
        Originally posted by Rushing Jaws View Post
        AFAICS, God is not lying or deceiving them, but is giving them up to their wilfully sought self-deception.
        I wonder though how you get this from "God sends them a powerful delusion".

        That sounds fine, but I don't see it in the text.

        In all this, God is innocent of all falsehood.
        "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

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        • #184
          Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
          Lee and Sparky, you guys have derailed this thread.
          We are exactly on the topic. We are discussing if lying to defend a life is allowable or not.

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          • #185
            Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
            Yes.




            We need a new Calvinist thread here!

            Blessings,
            Lee
            Calvinists are predestined to be wrong.

            Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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            I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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            • #186
              Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
              Calvinists are predestined to be wrong.

              If a calvinist lies it is because God made him do it.

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              • #187
                Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                Calvinists are predestined to be wrong.

                Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                If a [C]alvinist lies it is because God made him do it.
                This is what makes the falsehoods of non-Calvinists all the more abominable: we could have genuinely elected to do otherwise.
                For Neo-Remonstration (Arminian/Remonstrant ruminations): <https://theremonstrant.blogspot.com>

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                • #188
                  Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                  I wonder though how you get this from "God sends them a powerful delusion".
                  I think Scripture sometimes says that God does X, when X is what experienced. The cause is put for the effect. St Paul is thinking in apocalyptic categories in this passage. That a powerful delusion is experienced, means, in those categories, that God is the cause of it; secondary causes, like human choice, count for little; so the usual questions that would arise, about how a Good God would cause this, just do not arise; they are irrelevant to that type of writing.

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                  • #189
                    Has anyone mentioned Exodus 1:15-21 yet regarding the Hebrew midwives lying to Pharaoh?

                    Also I note that "You must not murder" is one of the ten commandments, but "You must not lie" is not one of them. False testimony against your neighbor is, but the text seems to indicate a legal sense and means perjury.
                    Last edited by Super Cow; 05-06-2018, 05:53 PM.

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                    • #190
                      Originally posted by Super Cow View Post
                      Has anyone mentioned Exodus 1:15-21 yet regarding the Hebrew midwives lying to Pharaoh?



                      Also I note that "You must not murder" is one of the ten commandments, but "You must not lie" is not one of them. False testimony against your neighbor is, but the text seems to indicate a legal sense and means perjury.
                      Perjury is only under oath (side note: Matthew 5:33-37; James 5:12). Giving a false witness is still wrong without an oath (Revelation 21:8).
                      . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                      . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                      Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

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