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Thread: Lying for the sake of life

  1. #181
    tWebber Rushing Jaws's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    God sends them a powerful delusion, I didn't write that, Scripture writes that, and the purpose is so that they will believe the lie.
    [SNIP]

    Blessings,
    Lee
    AFAICS, God is not lying or deceiving them, but is giving them up to their wilfully sought self-deception. Put another way, He is, justly and punitively, depriving them of the grace that protected them from being deceived. They chose to reject God, and He is giving them over to that rejection, and its consequences. They are in much the same position as the opponents of Christ who suspected Who He was, but insincerely rejected what they suspected was true, and had sufficient light from God to see was true, or likely to be true. Like the unrighteous heathens in Romans 1, those who are sent a powerful delusion in 2 Thess. 2 have “suppressed the truth in unrighteousness” - they have chosen to be blind, and their sinful and insincere choice becomes its own punishment.

    In all this, God is innocent of all falsehood. He is, in a sense, only giving these people what they wanted. This passage is a strong warning against insincerity and wilful ignorance in religion.

  2. #182
    tWebber Rushing Jaws's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    So you think God makes someone not believe? That for instance he forced unbelief on Pharoah? It said he hardened his heart.

    I don't take that to mean God made Pharoah unable to believe or made him hate God. I think it means that God knew that Pharoah was stubborn and he would not relent even when Moses did miracles for him. The Pharoah hardened his own heart in response and God allowed it. The same with the delusion. The people will willingly believe the Antichrist and so God allows them to delude themselves. He gives them over to their sin and they believe the lie of the antichrist.
    What happens in us, when we sin ? I think that if we look in our souls, we can get a good clue to the “mechanics” of what is involved, since all of us are Pharaoh, all of us sin.

  3. #183
    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rushing Jaws View Post
    AFAICS, God is not lying or deceiving them, but is giving them up to their wilfully sought self-deception.
    I wonder though how you get this from "God sends them a powerful delusion".

    Like the unrighteous heathens in Romans 1, those who are sent a powerful delusion in 2 Thess. 2 have “suppressed the truth in unrighteousness” - they have chosen to be blind, and their sinful and insincere choice becomes its own punishment.
    That sounds fine, but I don't see it in the text.

    In all this, God is innocent of all falsehood.
    Yes, God cannot lie. He can send someone a delusion, though.

    "The Lord said, ‘Who will entice Ahab to go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead?’ And one said this while another said that. Then a spirit came forward and stood before the Lord and said, ‘I will entice him.’ The Lord said to him, ‘How?’ And he said, ‘I will go out and be a deceiving spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ Then He said, ‘You are to entice him and also prevail. Go and do so.’" (1 Ki 22:20–22)

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

  4. #184
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jedidiah View Post
    Lee and Sparky, you guys have derailed this thread.
    We are exactly on the topic. We are discussing if lying to defend a life is allowable or not.

  5. #185
    Must...have...caffeine One Bad Pig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    Yes.




    We need a new Calvinist thread here!

    Blessings,
    Lee
    Calvinists are predestined to be wrong.

    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

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  6. Amen Teallaura amen'd this post.
  7. #186
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    Calvinists are predestined to be wrong.

    If a calvinist lies it is because God made him do it.

  8. #187
    tWebber The Remonstrant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    Calvinists are predestined to be wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    If a [C]alvinist lies it is because God made him do it.
    This is what makes the falsehoods of non-Calvinists all the more abominable: we could have genuinely elected to do otherwise.
    [I]f what you have heard from the beginning remains in you, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. … The one who has the Son has the life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. (1 Jn 2.24; 5.12, LEB)

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    Farewell. (Sat., 24 Mar. 2018)

  9. #188
    tWebber Rushing Jaws's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    I wonder though how you get this from "God sends them a powerful delusion".
    I think Scripture sometimes says that God does X, when X is what experienced. The cause is put for the effect. St Paul is thinking in apocalyptic categories in this passage. That a powerful delusion is experienced, means, in those categories, that God is the cause of it; secondary causes, like human choice, count for little; so the usual questions that would arise, about how a Good God would cause this, just do not arise; they are irrelevant to that type of writing.
    That sounds fine, but I don't see it in the text.


    Yes, God cannot lie. He can send someone a delusion, though.
    "The Lord said, ‘Who will entice Ahab to go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead?’ And one said this while another said that. Then a spirit came forward and stood before the Lord and said, ‘I will entice him.’ The Lord said to him, ‘How?’ And he said, ‘I will go out and be a deceiving spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ Then He said, ‘You are to entice him and also prevail. Go and do so.’" (1 Ki 22:20–22)

    Blessings,
    Lee
    I don’t see that passage as asserting that God actively wills or proposes or sends delusions. I think passages saying He does so, have, if one is going to be Christian in thinking, to be transposed into different categories. I think the passage is using mythological categories adopted by Israel to make a theological point about how its God acts on men; and that OT ideas has to be tested by what we know about Christ.

  10. #189
    tWebber
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    Has anyone mentioned Exodus 1:15-21 yet regarding the Hebrew midwives lying to Pharaoh?

    The king of Egypt said to the Hebrew midwives, whose names were Shiphrah and Puah, “When you are helping the Hebrew women during childbirth on the delivery stool, if you see that the baby is a boy, kill him; but if it is a girl, let her live.” The midwives, however, feared God and did not do what the king of Egypt had told them to do; they let the boys live. Then the king of Egypt summoned the midwives and asked them, “Why have you done this? Why have you let the boys live?”

    The midwives answered Pharaoh, “Hebrew women are not like Egyptian women; they are vigorous and give birth before the midwives arrive.”

    So God was kind to the midwives and the people increased and became even more numerous. And because the midwives feared God, he gave them families of their own.
    Also I note that "You must not murder" is one of the ten commandments, but "You must not lie" is not one of them. False testimony against your neighbor is, but the text seems to indicate a legal sense and means perjury.
    Last edited by Super Cow; 05-06-2018 at 04:53 PM.

  11. #190
    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Cow View Post
    Has anyone mentioned Exodus 1:15-21 yet regarding the Hebrew midwives lying to Pharaoh?



    Also I note that "You must not murder" is one of the ten commandments, but "You must not lie" is not one of them. False testimony against your neighbor is, but the text seems to indicate a legal sense and means perjury.
    Perjury is only under oath (side note: Matthew 5:33-37; James 5:12). Giving a false witness is still wrong without an oath (Revelation 21:8).
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

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