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Thread: Lying for the sake of life

  1. #21
    Professor Cerebrum123's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Littlejoe View Post
    Jesus said:
    Scripture Verse: Matt 22:34-40

    34 But when the Pharisees heard that he had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together.35 And one of them, a lawyer, asked him a question to test him.36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?”37 And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.38 This is the great and first commandment.39 And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself.40 On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.”

    © Copyright Original Source

    ISTM that if "On these two commandments depend ALL the Law and the Prophets..." Then lying to protect a neighbors life is the most loving thing you could do. (and Jesus told who our neighbor is...) Ergo, I would assume it would be acceptable to God. Just like Sparko pointed out with Rahab.

    Then there is this.

    John 7:1 After these things Jesus was walking in Galilee, for He was unwilling to walk in Judea because the Jews were seeking to kill Him. 2 Now the feast of the Jews, the Feast of Booths, was near. 3 Therefore His brothers said to Him, “Leave here and go into Judea, so that Your disciples also may see Your works which You are doing. 4 For no one does anything in secret [a]when he himself seeks to be known publicly. If You do these things, show Yourself to the world.” 5 For not even His brothers were believing in Him. 6 So Jesus *said to them, “My time is not yet here, but your time is always opportune. 7 The world cannot hate you, but it hates Me because I testify of it, that its deeds are evil. 8 Go up to the feast yourselves; I do not go up to this feast because My time has not yet fully come.” 9 Having said these things to them, He stayed in Galilee.

    10 But when His brothers had gone up to the feast, then He Himself also went up, not publicly, but as if, in secret.

    That looks pretty dishonest to me.
    Safka, you are NOT "unknown", you were loved by many, and you will not be forgotten. I will always remember you Puginator.


  2. Amen RumTumTugger amen'd this post.
  3. #22
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kiwimac View Post
    It is a mitzvah in Jewish law to save another life. It is not wrong in such cases to lie.
    I think of it that way.

    It is a sin to kill someone, but if you kill someone to defend someone else from their attack, it is not a sin. I think telling a lie in "self-defense" of others is not a sin.

  4. Amen Christianbookworm, RumTumTugger amen'd this post.
  5. #23
    Oops....... mossrose's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
    Then there is this.

    John 7:1 After these things Jesus was walking in Galilee, for He was unwilling to walk in Judea because the Jews were seeking to kill Him. 2 Now the feast of the Jews, the Feast of Booths, was near. 3 Therefore His brothers said to Him, “Leave here and go into Judea, so that Your disciples also may see Your works which You are doing. 4 For no one does anything in secret [a]when he himself seeks to be known publicly. If You do these things, show Yourself to the world.” 5 For not even His brothers were believing in Him. 6 So Jesus *said to them, “My time is not yet here, but your time is always opportune. 7 The world cannot hate you, but it hates Me because I testify of it, that its deeds are evil. 8 Go up to the feast yourselves; I do not go up to this feast because My time has not yet fully come.” 9 Having said these things to them, He stayed in Galilee.

    10 But when His brothers had gone up to the feast, then He Himself also went up, not publicly, but as if, in secret.

    That looks pretty dishonest to me.
    What? Are you suggesting that Jesus lied?

    Jesus, in v. 6, knew it was not yet time for Him to go to the feast. Just like at the Cana wedding, where Mary pushed Him, and He said the time had not come.

    In 10, we have to assume that God had directed Him to go. And He obeyed, but without the indiscretion that His disciples were demanding of Him.

    Look, everyone. I do not know of one occasion in scripture where God honoured anybody for telling a lie. Or committing adultery, or setting up a woman's husband to be murdered, or living in polygamy, or for any other thing which He has called sinful. If you can point out a verse to me, that would be great.

    I do not know what I would do if placed in a situation where a lie might save a life. I will not borrow grace and say with any certainty that I would not lie. But until I am there, I am sticking to my belief that God is sovereign and He can and will defend anyone if that is what His will for that person is, without a lie being told by a believer.


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  6. Amen lee_merrill amen'd this post.
  7. #24
    Must...have...caffeine One Bad Pig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mossrose View Post
    Look, everyone. I do not know of one occasion in scripture where God honoured anybody for telling a lie. Or committing adultery, or setting up a woman's husband to be murdered, or living in polygamy, or for any other thing which He has called sinful. If you can point out a verse to me, that would be great.
    Rahab was honored for hiding the spies when they were in Jericho (Joshua 2). Granted, it was Joshua who said she would be honored, but she is also honored for it in the NT (Heb. 11:31, James 2:25).
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
    Then there is this.

    John 7:1 After these things Jesus was walking in Galilee, for He was unwilling to walk in Judea because the Jews were seeking to kill Him. 2 Now the feast of the Jews, the Feast of Booths, was near. 3 Therefore His brothers said to Him, “Leave here and go into Judea, so that Your disciples also may see Your works which You are doing. 4 For no one does anything in secret [a]when he himself seeks to be known publicly. If You do these things, show Yourself to the world.” 5 For not even His brothers were believing in Him. 6 So Jesus *said to them, “My time is not yet here, but your time is always opportune. 7 The world cannot hate you, but it hates Me because I testify of it, that its deeds are evil. 8 Go up to the feast yourselves; I do not go up to this feast because My time has not yet fully come.” 9 Having said these things to them, He stayed in Galilee.

    10 But when His brothers had gone up to the feast, then He Himself also went up, not publicly, but as if, in secret.

    That looks pretty dishonest to me.
    There are a couple different ways to look at this. Another possibility is that a word dropped out ("I am not yet going...."), but it's probably more likely that someone with your discomfort added it in. Another way of resolving the tension is that his brothers wanted him to go publicly, and and in that context there is no dishonesty (because he went in secret, not publicly).
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio

    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

  9. Amen mossrose, Teallaura, DesertBerean amen'd this post.
  10. #26
    Oops....... mossrose's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    Rahab was honored for hiding the spies when they were in Jericho (Joshua 2). Granted, it was Joshua who said she would be honored, but she is also honored for it in the NT (Heb. 11:31, James 2:25).
    She's honoured for her faith in Hebrews 11. Doesn't say it's because she lied. She welcomed the spies and hid them because of her faith.

    In James, her "work" of hiding the spies after receiving them was demonstrating the reality of her saving faith. It does not indicate that her lie commended her, but her hiding the men.


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  11. Amen DesertBerean amen'd this post.
  12. #27
    Must...have...caffeine One Bad Pig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mossrose View Post
    She's honoured for her faith in Hebrews 11. Doesn't say it's because she lied. She welcomed the spies and hid them because of her faith.

    In James, her "work" of hiding the spies after receiving them was demonstrating the reality of her saving faith. It does not indicate that her lie commended her, but her hiding the men.
    Hiding the men required her to lie about it.
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio

    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

  13. Amen Cerebrum123, Obsidian, Teallaura amen'd this post.
  14. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by mossrose View Post
    What? Are you suggesting that Jesus lied?
    It certainly seems like one to me, but I also know this.

    Hebrews 6:18 so that by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have taken refuge would have strong encouragement to take hold of the hope set before us.

    I'm trying to wrap my mind around these verses. The subject of lying came up here, so I'm asking about it. Either my understanding of what a lie is, is wrong, or my understanding of the passage is wrong. I'm trying to figure out which.

    Jesus, in v. 6, knew it was not yet time for Him to go to the feast. Just like at the Cana wedding, where Mary pushed Him, and He said the time had not come.
    How is the incident at Cana anything like this one? At Cana he was urged by Mary to do something, at first resisted, and then gave in to her request. In this one he says to his brothers he's not going to the feast, and then goes, but in secret.

    In 10, we have to assume that God had directed Him to go. And He obeyed, but without the indiscretion that His disciples were demanding of Him.
    First, it is his brothers, and second what "indiscretion"?

    To me this explanation doesn't make sense of the fact that He went in secret. I can't think of any reason that would have been necessary under your scenario.

    Look, everyone. I do not know of one occasion in scripture where God honoured anybody for telling a lie. Or committing adultery, or setting up a woman's husband to be murdered, or living in polygamy, or for any other thing which He has called sinful. If you can point out a verse to me, that would be great.

    I do not know what I would do if placed in a situation where a lie might save a life. I will not borrow grace and say with any certainty that I would not lie. But until I am there, I am sticking to my belief that God is sovereign and He can and will defend anyone if that is what His will for that person is, without a lie being told by a believer.
    Jacob received Esau's blessing through deceit. God obviously knew it was intended for Esau, but gave it to Jacob anyway.
    Safka, you are NOT "unknown", you were loved by many, and you will not be forgotten. I will always remember you Puginator.


  15. #29
    Professor Cerebrum123's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    There are a couple different ways to look at this. Another possibility is that a word dropped out ("I am not yet going...."), but it's probably more likely that someone with your discomfort added it in. Another way of resolving the tension is that his brothers wanted him to go publicly, and and in that context there is no dishonesty (because he went in secret, not publicly).
    I knew that the "yet" was likely added. The underlined is the best explanation I've seen. I'll be thinking it over.
    Safka, you are NOT "unknown", you were loved by many, and you will not be forgotten. I will always remember you Puginator.


  16. #30
    Oops....... mossrose's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
    It certainly seems like one to me, but I also know this.

    Hebrews 6:18 so that by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have taken refuge would have strong encouragement to take hold of the hope set before us.

    I'm trying to wrap my mind around these verses. The subject of lying came up here, so I'm asking about it. Either my understanding of what a lie is, is wrong, or my understanding of the passage is wrong. I'm trying to figure out which.
    Ok. Fair enough.



    How is the incident at Cana anything like this one? At Cana he was urged by Mary to do something, at first resisted, and then gave in to her request. In this one he says to his brothers he's not going to the feast, and then goes, but in secret.
    First, it is his brothers, and second what "indiscretion"?
    Mary was trying to force Jesus (although I doubt she realized that's what she was doing) to display His divinity before it was, according to Christ, not yet time for Him to do so. I will not guess as to why He acquiesced.

    His brothers (and I apologize for misspeaking about it being disciples, although they believed Him, so they were disciples ) were trying to get Jesus to go to the feast publicly. He was not going to do that, as His time for showing who He is had not arrived. He was waiting for God's time, not His brothers.







    To me this explanation doesn't make sense of the fact that He went in secret. I can't think of any reason that would have been necessary under your scenario.
    OB One said pretty much the same thing that you agreed with in the post following this one I'm quoting. Which he said after I posted.



    Jacob received Esau's blessing through deceit. God obviously knew it was intended for Esau, but gave it to Jacob anyway.
    Yes, and he had to deal with his brother for the rest of his life, and he was deceived by Laban and ended up with strife in his family for the rest of his life. So he paid consequences for his deceit.
    Last edited by mossrose; 10-30-2017 at 10:24 PM.


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