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Lying for the sake of life

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  • #31
    Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    Hiding the men required her to lie about it.

    Nobody knows if that was the case or not.


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    • #32
      Originally posted by mossrose View Post
      Nobody knows if that was the case or not.
      She was asked where they were, after she'd hid them.
      Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

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      • #33
        Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
        She was asked where they were, after she'd hid them.

        She lied, yes. But was she REQUIRED to lie, as you said?

        K, I'm tired of going over the same thing. Love you all, but I'm not changing my mind, and you all aren't either. So, we're good, and I'm out.



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        • #34
          Originally posted by mossrose View Post
          She lied, yes. But was she REQUIRED to lie, as you said?
          I suppose she could have told the truth, in which case the spies would have been captured.
          K, I'm tired of going over the same thing. Love you all, but I'm not changing my mind, and you all aren't either. So, we're good, and I'm out.

          I was pretty much done, too.
          Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

          Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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          I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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          • #35
            Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
            I suppose she could have told the truth, in which case the spies would have been captured.
            Or, God would have protected them in His own way.

            I was pretty much done, too.


            Now I'm really done.


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            • #36
              Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
              Rahab was honored for hiding the spies when they were in Jericho (Joshua 2). Granted, it was Joshua who said she would be honored, but she is also honored for it in the NT (Heb. 11:31, James 2:25).
              Yeah. This is the *only* example I can think of where lying was honored, but it seems reasonably clear.
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              • #37
                Originally posted by mossrose View Post
                She's honoured for her faith in Hebrews 11. Doesn't say it's because she lied. She welcomed the spies and hid them because of her faith.

                In James, her "work" of hiding the spies after receiving them was demonstrating the reality of her saving faith. It does not indicate that her lie commended her, but her hiding the men.
                isn't hiding a form of deception itself? You are making people think you are not there. How is that different from just telling people you are not there? Seems like the same thing.

                Not to mention that sneaking into the city was illegal tresspassing. wouldn't that be a sin too?
                Last edited by Sparko; 10-30-2017, 02:44 PM.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by mossrose View Post
                  She lied, yes. But was she REQUIRED to lie, as you said?

                  K, I'm tired of going over the same thing. Love you all, but I'm not changing my mind, and you all aren't either. So, we're good, and I'm out.

                  I think this is the first thing I have ever disagreed with you on. We have done pretty well, eh?
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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by mossrose View Post
                    Ok. Fair enough.





                    Mary was trying to force Jesus (although I doubt she realized that's what she was doing) to display His divinity before it was, according to Christ, not yet time for Him to do so. I will not guess as to why He acquiesced.

                    His brothers (and I apologize for misspeaking about it being disciples, although they believed Him, so they were disciples ) were trying to get Jesus to go to the feast publicly. He was not going to do that, as His time for showing who He is had not arrived. He was waiting for God's time, not His brothers.







                    [quoteTo me this explanation doesn't make sense of the fact that He went in secret. I can't think of any reason that would have been necessary under your scenario.
                    OB One said pretty much the same thing that you agreed with in the post following this one I'm quoting. Which he said after I posted.





                    Yes, and he had to deal with his brother for the rest of his life, and he was deceived by Laban and ended up with strife in his family for the rest of his life. So he paid consequences for his deceit.[/QUOTE]

                    Yeah, I know that you are "done". I just wanted to point out a few things. 1. Jesus' brothers didn't believe, so they wouldn't be His disciples. 2. OBP's explanation is different than yours. Yours relies on the "not yet time", and God telling Him to go later when it was the right time. His relies on the public/secret issue. I'm not sure I agree with it, but it makes a little more sense to me. It's something to think about though, which is why I posted in this thread. I'm trying to get an idea of how best to understand all of this.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by brum
                      Yeah, I know that you are "done". I just wanted to point out a few things. 1. Jesus' brothers didn't believe, so they wouldn't be His disciples. 2. OBP's explanation is different than yours. Yours relies on the "not yet time", and God telling Him to go later when it was the right time. His relies on the public/secret issue. I'm not sure I agree with it, but it makes a little more sense to me. It's something to think about though, which is why I posted in this thread. I'm trying to get an idea of how best to understand all of this.
                      1. Sorry, brum. I misread. AGAIN!

                      2. I didn't see much difference between OB One's explanation and mine. I blame my old brain.



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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by mossrose View Post
                        1. Sorry, brum. I misread. AGAIN!

                        2. I didn't see much difference between OB One's explanation and mine. I blame my old brain.

                        I figured as much. I often have the same kind of issues with reading things.

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                        • #42
                          Judges 4:18-21
                          And Jael went out to meet Sisera, and said unto him, Turn in, my lord, turn in to me; fear not. And when he had turned in unto her into the tent, she covered him with a mantle. . . . Then Jael Heber’s wife took a nail of the tent, and took an hammer in her hand, and went softly unto him, and smote the nail into his temples, and fastened it into the ground: for he was fast asleep and weary. So he died.

                          Judges 5:24
                          Blessed above women shall Jael the wife of Heber the Kenite be,
                          blessed shall she be above women in the tent.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
                            Then there is this.

                            John 7:1 After these things Jesus was walking in Galilee, for He was unwilling to walk in Judea because the Jews were seeking to kill Him. 2 Now the feast of the Jews, the Feast of Booths, was near. 3 Therefore His brothers said to Him, “Leave here and go into Judea, so that Your disciples also may see Your works which You are doing. 4 For no one does anything in secret [a]when he himself seeks to be known publicly. If You do these things, show Yourself to the world.” 5 For not even His brothers were believing in Him. 6 So Jesus *said to them, “My time is not yet here, but your time is always opportune. 7 The world cannot hate you, but it hates Me because I testify of it, that its deeds are evil. 8 Go up to the feast yourselves; I do not go up to this feast because My time has not yet fully come.” 9 Having said these things to them, He stayed in Galilee.

                            10 But when His brothers had gone up to the feast, then He Himself also went up, not publicly, but as if, in secret.

                            That looks pretty dishonest to me.
                            *bold emphasis mine

                            His brothers were very much of the opinion that He should go and make a public entrance. That's what He is refusing to do. Telling them "I'll go but secretly' probably wouldn't have worked out very well.

                            The important bit is the publicity - that's what His brothers cared about and why they asked. That's also what He did not do.


                            Edit: Er, OBP already did this one... I'm quitting now...
                            Last edited by Teallaura; 10-30-2017, 05:29 PM.
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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
                              Yeah. This is the *only* example I can think of where lying was honored, but it seems reasonably clear.
                              Um, what's her name that did in Sisera.

                              Edit: Obsidian got it - Jael.
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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                                *bold emphasis mine

                                His brothers were very much of the opinion that He should go and make a public entrance. That's what He is refusing to do. Telling them "I'll go but secretly' probably wouldn't have worked out very well.

                                The important bit is the publicity - that's what His brothers cared about and why they asked. That's also what He did not do.
                                It would have been the truth though. Most everyone I know would see that as a lie. As I mentioned in a previous post, it might be what I would consider to be a lie that is the real problem, and not an issue with understanding the passage.

                                Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                                Um, what's her name that did in Sisera.
                                Obsidian beat you to the punch with the example of Jael.

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