Lying for the sake of life

[One Bad Pig]

Judges 4:18-21
And Jael went out to meet Sisera, and said unto him, Turn in, my lord, turn in to me; fear not. And when he had turned in unto her into the tent, she covered him with a mantle. . . . Then Jael Heber’s wife took a nail of the tent, and took an hammer in her hand, and went softly unto him, and smote the nail into his temples, and fastened it into the ground: for he was fast asleep and weary. So he died.

Judges 5:24
Blessed above women shall Jael the wife of Heber the Kenite be,
blessed shall she be above women in the tent.

This one's not as clear-cut, because it's not as clearly honored by God; Jael's killing of Sisera was only honored in a victory song sung by Deborah and Barak.

[Christianbookworm]

Well, there is this incident in Exodus 1:17-20.

The midwives, however, feared God and did not do what the king of Egypt had told them to do; they let the boys live. 18 Then the king of Egypt summoned the midwives and asked them, “Why have you done this? Why have you let the boys live?”

19 The midwives answered Pharaoh, “Hebrew women are not like Egyptian women; they are vigorous and give birth before the midwives arrive.”

20 So God was kind to the midwives and the people increased and became even more numerous. 21 And because the midwives feared God, he gave them families of their own.

[Obsidian]

If I'm ever on the run from the government for any noble purpose, Mossrose, then I guess I'll make sure to stay away from you.

[One Bad Pig]

If I'm ever on the run from the government for any noble purpose, Mossrose, then I guess I'll make sure to stay away from you.

Nah, you'd be good. She's Canuckistani, and no one would ever suspect you of fleeing there.

[Sparko]

On the topic of lying, I have always been curious about 1 Kings 22:

21 Finally, a spirit came forward, stood before the Lord and said, ‘I will entice him.’

22 “‘By what means?’ the Lord asked.

“‘I will go out and be a deceiving ["lying" in the KJV] spirit in the mouths of all his prophets,’ he said.

“‘You will succeed in enticing him,’ said the Lord. ‘Go and do it.’

[Christianbookworm]

On the topic of lying, I have always been curious about 1 Kings 22:

21 Finally, a spirit came forward, stood before the Lord and said, ‘I will entice him.’

22 “‘By what means?’ the Lord asked.

“‘I will go out and be a deceiving ["lying" in the KJV] spirit in the mouths of all his prophets,’ he said.

“‘You will succeed in enticing him,’ said the Lord. ‘Go and do it.’

God had some other spirit do the lying? Figures. the only possibly ethical motive for lying genreally invovles a weak person tricking an evil powerful person into not hurting someone else. Or them. Like if a girl claimed she needed to use the bathroom to keep a guy from doing something bad to her. I read that example somewhere on the internet. God doesn't need to ever lie due to being omnipotent. He has all the power to tell someone to just leave or else. So, what would Jesus do in the Nazi scenario? Assuming that miracles are indeed an option, He could make the Nazi leave.

[NorrinRadd]

On the topic of lying, I have always been curious about 1 Kings 22:

21 Finally, a spirit came forward, stood before the Lord and said, ‘I will entice him.’

22 “‘By what means?’ the Lord asked.

“‘I will go out and be a deceiving ["lying" in the KJV] spirit in the mouths of all his prophets,’ he said.

“‘You will succeed in enticing him,’ said the Lord. ‘Go and do it.’

In the NET (and explained by their notes), it is translated in the imperative: "The LORD said, 'Deceive and overpower him.'"

Either way, it's hard to interpret that any way other than "*I* won't lie, but I'm happy to have another spirit do it on my behalf."

[mossrose]

Come on, you guys. You can't possibly be making God out to be a liar by association!

This is a "spirit" not a person, and only a spirit from Satan, or Satan himself would offer to go and tell lies to persuade Arab to go to die! You can't compare people telling lies with a lying demon!

It was God's purpose to allow this spirit to do this job, just as He allowed Satan to test Job! How can we question His purposes here?



Norrin has come close to blasphemy here.

I'm trying to stay out of here, but this can't go without comment.

[NorrinRadd]

Come on, you guys. You can't possibly be making God out to be a liar by association!

This is a "spirit" not a person, and only a spirit from Satan, or Satan himself would offer to go and tell lies to persuade Arab to go to die! You can't compare people telling lies with a lying demon!

It was God's purpose to allow this spirit to do this job, just as He allowed Satan to test Job! How can we question His purposes here?



Norrin has come close to blasphemy here.

I'm trying to stay out of here, but this can't go without comment.

FTR, I would rather be universally perceived as blaspheming -- and even be actually "guilty" of it -- than try to tip-toe around what I see in Scripture.

[Cow Poke]

FTR, I would rather be universally perceived as blaspheming -- and even be actually "guilty" of it -- than try to tip-toe around what I see in Scripture.

wow

[mossrose]

FTR, I would rather be universally perceived as blaspheming -- and even be actually "guilty" of it -- than try to tip-toe around what I see in Scripture.

Well, the bad news for you is that you ARE tiptoeing around what you see in scripture by attributing sinful behaviour to God. Which, if you are familiar with the entirety of God's Word, you will know that it doesn't, ever, anywhere, support what you are trying to foist off on us.

But, you are WoF or some such, aren't you? Used to changing up the Word to suit your own agenda.

[Obsidian]

2 Thessalonians 2:11-12
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: that they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

[Christianbookworm]

It isn't lying to have two options for someone to believe and blatantly tell them that one option is false. If that person wants to be an idiot and believe the false option, they deceived themselves.

Ooh, nice link! http://christianthinktank.com/godlies.html

BUT THE REALLY JUICY PASSAGE has not been raised by your friend! Let's look at the REALLY TOUGH ONE--I Kings 22.20-23:

And the LORD said, 'Who will entice Ahab into attacking Ramoth Gilead and going to his death there?'
"One suggested this, and another that. 21 Finally, a spirit came forward, stood before the LORD and said, 'I will entice him.' "
'By what means?' the LORD asked.
" 'I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouths of all his prophets,' he said.
" 'You will succeed in enticing him,' said the LORD. 'Go and do it.'
"So now the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours. The LORD has decreed disaster for you."


Let's notice a few things about this passage and its context.

The prophesy is 'against' Ahab, a particularly evil king of the Northern Kingdom of Israel. He typically gathered false prophets around him (as "Yes" men) and complained about the prophet Micaiah (who uttered the above) that he only 'spoke bad things about him' so Ahab did not consult with him much! (I Kgs 22.8,18)

As we have seen in the later case of Jeremiah and Ezek, this pattern of the rulers only listening to 'politically acceptable' prophets started early. (Remember the "IMPORTANT POINT A" above?) Compare the case of the prophet Isaiah, chronologically between Micaiah and Jeremiah, in 30.10ff:

" They say to the seers, "See no more visions!"
and to the prophets, "Give us no more visions of what is right!
Tell us pleasant things, prophesy illusions.
Leave this way, get off this path, and stop confronting us
with the Holy One of Israel!"

God had already judged Ahab and decreed his death in 21.19, for , among other things, the innocent death of Naboth (22.1-19).

The sending of the 'lying spirits' is to EVENTUATE Ahab's judgment (22.20).

The actual word for 'entice' is the 'seduce' word we saw in Jeremiah. God asks who will 'seduce/overpower' Ahab in going to his death (no mention of 'deception' yet). A spirit volunteers to be a 'lying spirit' and God grants permission, with a "go and do it". Seduction DOES NOT necessarily include deception. There were OTHER forms of the verb, and other words that could have brought that meaning out--if so intended, but they are not used in this passage.

This 'putting of the lying spirit' is called part of a 'disaster decree (judgment)' in 22.23.

This is a clear case of 'confusion' or false decisions AS A JUDGMENT.

Important Point B (again): In this passage it is even MORE obvious than in the cases of Jeremiah and Ezekiel. Notice that this passage 20-23 is BEING GIVEN face to face to AHAB! Micaiah, in the presence of the other prophets and even the king of the Southern Kingdom, is describing this vision IN DETAIL to AHAB! Ahab has every opportunity to reject the lying spirits and accept the true message from YAHWEH! Kaiser makes this point clearly (HSOT:120f): "This principle is further confirmed when we note that the passage in question is a vision that Micaiah reveals to Ahab. God is telling Ahab, 'Wise up. I am allowing your prophets to lie to you." In a sense, God is revealing further truth to Ahab rather than lying to him. If God were truly trying to entrap Ahab into a life-threatening situation, he would not have revealed the plan to Ahab! Even so, Ahab refuses to heed God's truth and follows his prophets' advice anyway." Notice that this same dynamic of "if God were REALLY trying to deceive, why would he TELL the people?!" is operative in ALL of the OTHER CASES we have seen!

[Teallaura]

It would have been the truth though. Most everyone I know would see that as a lie. As I mentioned in a previous post, it might be what I would consider to be a lie that is the real problem, and not an issue with understanding the passage.
.....

I realized much later that we're making a really, really basic mistake here. Jesus says He isn't going - He never promises not to go. There's nothing in the text that tells us He was intending to go anyway. Without that intent, there is no deception - at all, in any way.

Being fully human and fully divine, Jesus has the same right as anyone else to simply change His mind. He wasn't going to go to make a public spectacle, that's clear from the text and that He did not do. He may simply have decided not to go at all initially - hence the wording - and changed His mind later. There's no deception there - and nothing for His brothers to be mad about since He made no promise, merely a statement of His intentions at that moment.

It also supports the view that Jesus was indeed fully human - and like any human could change His mind about His intentions. That has further implications - if Jesus can change His mind (which I think is self evident but go with me here) then Satan isn't just whistling Dixie as he tempts Jesus. Further, Jesus' resistance is real in a human sense and not merely the divine will playing out (which would be a foregone conclusion). It also means that Jesus, like the rest of humanity, had the free will to disobey God, and to walk away from the cross.

[lee_merrill]

In the NET (and explained by their notes), it is translated in the imperative: "The LORD said, 'Deceive and overpower him.'"

Either way, it's hard to interpret that any way other than "*I* won't lie, but I'm happy to have another spirit do it on my behalf."

But note that Ahab was told the truth! He was told of this conversation.

Source: Augustine

How much braver then, how much more excellent to say, "I will neither betray nor lie?"

This did a former Bishop of the Church of Thagasta, Firmus by name, and even more firm in will. For when he was asked by command of the emperor, through officers sent by him, for a man who was taking refuge with him, and whom he kept in hiding with all possible care, he made answer to their questions, that he could neither tell a lie, nor betray a man; and when he had suffered so many torments of body (for as yet emperors were not Christian) he stood firm in his purpose. Thereupon being brought before the emperor, his conduct appeared so admirable, that he without any difficulty obtained a pardon for the man whom he was trying to save. What conduct could be more brave and constant?

© Copyright Original Source

Blessings,
Lee