Lying for the sake of life

[Rushing Jaws]

Oh, I very much agree that God does not need them, but throughout scripture God uses sinful actions of people to accomplish His will.

[Rushing Jaws]

But God cannot lie (Titus 1:2, Heb. 6:18), therefore Jesus could not have lied, therefore lying is always a sin.

"No lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless." (Rev. 14:5)

Blessings,
Lee

[Cow Poke]

I remember a talk by Paul Kurtz on situational ethics. He gives an example of a friend in the hospital, and the doctor comes to you and tells you "there is no hope, he is going to die". You go into your friend's room, and your friend asks "what did the doctor say". "In that case", says Kurtz, "clearly I would lie".

You would not have to lie, you could simply say something like, "he's not very optimistic, but doctors have been wrong before". You are under no obligation to pass on what the doctor said to you in a personal conversation.

(in Kurtz' example, I don't really see a doctor being that openly negative to a non-family member, but that was his illustration)

[Jedidiah]

All this is true, but I do not see lying to save an innocent life as sinful. Saving a life is not evil.

[Just Passing Through]

[lee_merrill]

All this is true, but I do not see lying to save an innocent life as sinful. Saving a life is not evil.

No, but lying is evil--what other sins would be allowed in order to save an innocent life? Stealing? Adultery? Murder?

But I believe we will never be put in the place of having to choose between sins, otherwise 1 Cor. 10:13 would not be true, there would be temptations with no way of escape.

Source: 1 Co 10:13

No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it.

© Copyright Original Source

Blessings,
Lee

[lee_merrill]

"Some said it thundered" (John 12:29). So indeed it's not God's will to correct us of every false notion, even about what he has said or done. You raise some good points! What is a lie? What is it that God cannot do?

"If we claim to have fellowship with him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live out the truth." (1 Jn 1:6)

So one lie is a false claim to fellowship with God.

"Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ." (1 Jn 2:22)

So the quintessential lie is to deny that Jesus is the Christ, to deny what is true.

"No lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless." (Re 14:5)

So I think we know what lying is, it's speaking what is not true, and that is what is forbidden.

"Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its practices and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator." (Col 3:9-10)

How were his words not a lie, if a lie is defined by the objective truth value of the words themselves?

As Augustine noted, Nineveh was overthrown, but by repentance, rather than by judgment.

Agreed.

Blessings,
Lee

[KingsGambit]

Luke 14:5 comes to mind here. Under the Old Covenant, it was generally sinful to work on the Sabbath. However, Jesus indicated that in an emergency situation, the natural thing to do would be to make an exception. The same could be said about other actions that are normally sins.

[lee_merrill]

Luke 14:5 comes to mind here. Under the Old Covenant, it was generally sinful to work on the Sabbath. However, Jesus indicated that in an emergency situation, the natural thing to do would be to make an exception. The same could be said about other actions that are normally sins.

But we shouldn't be thinking we can commit adultery in an emergency! Transgressing the moral law is a sin, though the ceremonial law may be set aside as needed...

Blessings,
Lee

[KingsGambit]

But we shouldn't be thinking we can commit adultery in an emergency! Transgressing the moral law is a sin, though the ceremonial law may be set aside as needed...

Blessings,
Lee

Obviously there are probably no circumstances when adultery could be committed.

[Teallaura]

Obviously there are probably no circumstances when adultery could be committed.

No, but I'm sure someone will come up with some very creative movie plots to try...

[KingsGambit]

I think killing/murder is probably a better test case. The case of Jael and Sisera in Judges (where Jael tricks Sisera into a tent under the guise of hospitality where she drives a tent stake through his head) would normally be considered cold blooded murder but there were extenuating circumstances here. This also has relevance for the discussion on lying because she was somewhat deceptive in how she went about it. The text even says that God subdued the Canaanites through this action so it was clearly justified.

[lee_merrill]

I think killing/murder is probably a better test case. The case of Jael and Sisera in Judges (where Jael tricks Sisera into a tent under the guise of hospitality where she drives a tent stake through his head) would normally be considered cold blooded murder but there were extenuating circumstances here. This also has relevance for the discussion on lying because she was somewhat deceptive in how she went about it. The text even says that God subdued the Canaanites through this action so it was clearly justified.

I would classify Jael's actions as an act of war, like the feint of setting an ambush for Ai. And I would agree that not all deception is lying.

Blessings,
Lee

[Sparko]

I remember a talk by Paul Kurtz on situational ethics. He gives an example of a friend in the hospital, and the doctor comes to you and tells you "there is no hope, he is going to die". You go into your friend's room, and your friend asks "what did the doctor say". "In that case", says Kurtz, "clearly I would lie".

You would not have to lie, you could simply say something like, "he's not very optimistic, but doctors have been wrong before". You are under no obligation to pass on what the doctor said to you in a personal conversation.

(in Kurtz' example, I don't really see a doctor being that openly negative to a non-family member, but that was his illustration)

Ha! When my dad had lung cancer they went in and did exploratory surgery to see the extent of it. When the doctor came to see us he said basically, "The cancer is beyond our control. You are going to die" - pretty much that bluntly. I took the doctor out into the hall and let him have it. A couple of nurses came up to me afterwards and told me what a total jerk that doctor was and that he treats patients and even other staff like they don't matter.

[Sparko]

No, but lying is evil--what other sins would be allowed in order to save an innocent life? Stealing? Adultery? Murder?

Could you steal a loaf of bread from a Nazi if you are feeding a starving child?
Can you kill someone to defend yourself?