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Thread: guacamole tells 37818 his views are heterodox

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    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    guacamole tells 37818 his views are heterodox

    Quote Originally Posted by guacamole View Post
    If you want me to debate your heterodox ideas, start a thread in a different forum, likely Biblical Languages, or theology.
    We can safely discuss it here.
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

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    tWebber guacamole's Avatar
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    I genuinely don't get your issue on this. For some reason you seem to deny that the concept of "firstborn" cannot carry the semantic weight of implying authority, despite the fact that verse 17 directly references Christ's ruling authority--"All things were created through him and for him."

    However, I'm far more perplexed by your assertion that Christ is a "created being"--ground well tread and rejected by the Church for millennia. What exactly is your stand on this?
    "Shall we mourn here deedless forever, a shadow-folk, mist-haunting, dropping vain tears in the
    thankless sea?"

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    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by guacamole View Post
    I genuinely don't get your issue on this. For some reason you seem to deny that the concept of "firstborn" cannot carry the semantic weight of implying authority, despite the fact that verse 17 directly references Christ's ruling authority--"All things were created through him and for him."
    I thought I had answered this early on.
    Quote Originally Posted by 37818 View Post
    . . . As Creator (v.16-17, John 1:3) He is preeminent. The adding the word "over" is not translation but imposing a meaning not according to the text. The text refers to Him as a creature who is "the firstborn of every creature." That is important in order that "in all [things] He might have preeminence." Not just preeminence as God the Creator . . .
    The common context of usage, v.18, Romans 8:29, Revelation 1:5.

    .However, I'm far more perplexed by your assertion that Christ is a "created being"--ground well tread and rejected by the Church for millennia. What exactly is your stand on this?
    Now the Son of God is the uncreated God with the Father. In the incarnation (John 1:14) He became part of His creation (Colossians 1:16-17; John 1:3, 10). In His incarnation He did not stop being God (John 3:13 KJV). But His humanity is not God (consider 1 Timothy 2:5).
    Last edited by 37818; 11-01-2017 at 01:34 PM.
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

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    tWebber guacamole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 37818 View Post
    I thought I had answered this early on.


    The common context of usage, v.18, Romans 8:29, Revelation 1:5.
    You're getting hung up on one verse in the passage, when there are a plurality of references on the idea of the firstborn not just being a concept of birth order.

    Again, clarify for me if you will, if it is your assertion that the idea of "firstborn" does not ever/cannot carry the idea of authority. It seems to me that it is common for the metaphors of scripture to be descriptions that are valid on a number of levels, hence my original "also."

    Now the Son of God is the uncreated God with the Father. In the incarnation (John 1:14) He became part of His creation (Colossians 1:16-17; John 1:3, 10). In His incarnation He did not stop being God (John 3:13 KJV). But His humanity is not God (consider 1 Timothy 2:5).
    Fine. My comment was in reference to this:

    ... His creation being a created being...
    "Shall we mourn here deedless forever, a shadow-folk, mist-haunting, dropping vain tears in the
    thankless sea?"

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    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by guacamole View Post
    You're getting hung up on one verse in the passage, when there are a plurality of references on the idea of the firstborn not just being a concept of birth order.

    Again, clarify for me if you will, if it is your assertion that the idea of "firstborn" does not ever/cannot carry the idea of authority. It seems to me that it is common for the metaphors of scripture to be descriptions that are valid on a number of levels, hence my original "also."
    Please give me an example in scripture where this term "firstborn" is used in regard to Christ in that other way you allege.


    Fine. My comment was in reference to this:

    ... His creation being a created being...
    Quote Originally Posted by 37818 View Post
    . . .The text refers to Him as a creature who is "the firstborn of every creature." That is important in order that "in all [things] He might have preeminence." Not just preeminence as God the Creator but preeminence also as His creation being a created being by way of His incarnation and His resurrection to be the first immortal man to be the first of His new creation (Colossians 1:18; Romans 8:22-23, 29, Revelation 1:5; 21:1).
    The word "His" refers to the pre-incarnate Christ (Colossians 1:16-17) being referred to "as God the Creator" (John 1:3). And ". . . being a created being by way of His incarnation . . ."
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

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