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To what extent can ethics be anchored in reason?

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
    You say that society is better when people live morally, but why ought one value what's best for society if it's in their own best interest to live selfishly?
    Your objection assumes that whatever someone believes is in their own best interest actually is in their own best interest. I don't think that assumption is justified.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by JimL View Post
      Pablo Escobar was killed at the age of 44 MM. Was it in his best interests?
      He lived like a king until then, so who's to say?

      So which is better, to live like a king and die at 44, or live like a pauper and die at 100?

      Source: Can We Be Good Without God?

      ...if atheism is true, there is no moral accountability for one’s actions. Even if there were objective moral values and duties under naturalism, they are irrelevant because there is no moral accountability. If life ends at the grave, it makes no difference whether one lives as a Stalin or as a saint. As the Russian writer Fyodor Dostoyevsky rightly said: “If there is no immortality, then all things are permitted.”

      https://www.reasonablefaith.org/writ...d-without-god/

      © Copyright Original Source

      Last edited by Mountain Man; 11-03-2017, 07:28 AM.
      Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
      But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
      Than a fool in the eyes of God


      From "Fools Gold" by Petra

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Doug Shaver View Post
        Your objection assumes that whatever someone believes is in their own best interest actually is in their own best interest. I don't think that assumption is justified.
        It doesn't assume that at all. What it does assume is that if atheism is true then there are times when it actually is in one's best interest to live selfishly. So I ask again, why ought one value what's best for society if it's in their own best interest to live selfishly?
        Last edited by Mountain Man; 11-03-2017, 07:42 AM.
        Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
        But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
        Than a fool in the eyes of God


        From "Fools Gold" by Petra

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Doug Shaver View Post
          We can't be infallibly certain about anything, but that is no excuse for shirking our responsibility for exercising our judgment to the best of our ability. Sometimes our judgment will be wrong, and we have to live with that. The only way to never do anything wrong is to never do anything, and even that won't work when inaction itself is the wrong option.
          But that is my point, we could never know the long term consequences of any act - good or bad, so on Consequentialism no act can be labeled good or bad. As opposed to Deontology where behaviors are good or bad in themselves. Saving the 17 year is a good act in and of itself, even if he kills a family of 5 later that night.
          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
            He lived like a king until then, so who's to say?

            So which is better, to live like a king and die at 44, or live like a pauper and die at 100?
            Heavy is the head that wears the crown. I know people who live on the street that are happier than some very wealthy people that I also know, so to equate super material wealth with happiness is wrong headed.
            [cite=Can We Be Good Without God?]...if atheism is true, there is no moral accountability for one’s actions. Even if there were objective moral values and duties under naturalism, they are irrelevant because there is no moral accountability. If life ends at the grave, it makes no difference whether one lives as a Stalin or as a saint. As the Russian writer Fyodor Dostoyevsky rightly said: “If there is no immortality, then all things are permitted.”
            First of all Dostoyevsky never said that, not those words, but a similar sentiment was mouthed by Ivan Karamazov, a character in his novel. But all things are are not permitted, and the reason they are not permitted is because we live in community and there are consequences to society for ones unsocial or immoral behavior and the violator thereof, the thief, will always have to be on guard, the murderer will always need fear for his own life etc etc.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by JimL View Post
              Heavy is the head that wears the crown. I know people who live on the street that are happier than some very wealthy people that I also know, so to equate super material wealth with happiness is wrong headed.

              First of all Dostoyevsky never said that, not those words, but a similar sentiment was mouthed by Ivan Karamazov, a character in his novel. But all things are are not permitted, and the reason they are not permitted is because we live in community and there are consequences to society for ones unsocial or immoral behavior and the violator thereof, the thief, will always have to be on guard, the murderer will always need fear for his own life etc etc.
              To pretend that material wealth and power can't bring happiness is similarly naive. As one person famously said, "I've been rich and miserable, and I've been poor and miserable, and I much prefer being rich and miserable."

              You say that people who live immorally will always have to be vigilant, but living morally doesn't make one impervious or immune to the evils of society, so what does it matter? An innocent person living in a rough neighborhood has as much reason to fear for her life as a murderer.

              But you're still missing the point: what does it ultimately matter in an atheist universe whether one lives as a sinner or as a saint when death is final, and there is no accountability?

              Ecclesiastes 9:2, "It is the same for all, since the same event happens to the righteous and the wicked, to the good and the evil, to the clean and the unclean, to him who sacrifices and him who does not sacrifice. As the good one is, so is the sinner, and he who swears is as he who shuns an oath."
              Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
              But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
              Than a fool in the eyes of God


              From "Fools Gold" by Petra

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                To pretend that material wealth and power can't bring happiness is similarly naive. As one person famously said, "I've been rich and miserable, and I've been poor and miserable, and I much prefer being rich and miserable."
                I'm not pretending, being rich may be preferable, but happiness itself doesn't necessarily depend upon wealth.
                You say that people who live immorally will always have to be vigilant, but living morally doesn't make one impervious or immune to the evils of society, so what does it matter? An innocent person living in a rough neighborhood has as much reason to fear for her life as a murderer.
                If the evils of society are checked by the inculcation of morality and punishment for violations thereof, then one doesn't need worry so much about the evils. Thats something you experience every day in a civil society.
                But you're still missing the point: what does it ultimately matter in an atheist universe whether one lives as a sinner or as a saint when death is final, and there is no accountability?
                The accountability and the rewards of moral behavior in society are about the lives of the living not about the dead.
                Ecclesiastes 9:2, "It is the same for all, since the same event happens to the righteous and the wicked, to the good and the evil, to the clean and the unclean, to him who sacrifices and him who does not sacrifice. As the good one is, so is the sinner, and he who swears is as he who shuns an oath."
                The point being? We have justice, so it is not the same. That some may escape justice is besides the point.
                Last edited by JimL; 11-03-2017, 12:25 PM.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by JimL View Post
                  The accountability and the rewards of moral behavior in society are about the lives of the living not about the dead.
                  But living immorally can also bring rewards, in some cases very great rewards, and in other cases, making a moral choice instead of the immoral one will deprive you of rewards and might even carry with it negative consequences. So none of this answers the question of why one ought to always make moral choices. On the contrary, situational ethics and pragmatism would suggest that one should always seek the most reward/least risk regardless of any moral consideration.
                  Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                  But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                  Than a fool in the eyes of God


                  From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                    It doesn't assume that at all. What it does assume is that if atheism is true then there are times when it actually is in one's best interest to live selfishly.
                    Then you're assuming your conclusion and thus presenting a circular argument.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                      But you're still missing the point: what does it ultimately matter in an atheist universe whether one lives as a sinner or as a saint when death is final, and there is no accountability?
                      Because there are always consequences, whether or not there is accountability.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by guacamole View Post
                        I'm interested in turning the question around. What is the basis of ethics in non-theistic systems? Preference? Popularity?
                        If atheism is true, how can they solve 'is-ought' challenge?

                        Looks very much like they can't, so no grounding. So yes, preference or popularity for them!
                        Remember that you are dust and to dust you shall return.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by demi-conservative View Post
                          If atheism is true, how can they solve 'is-ought' challenge?

                          Looks very much like they can't, so no grounding. So yes, preference or popularity for them!
                          There is no is-ought challenge, it's made up.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by JimL View Post
                            There is no is-ought challenge, it's made up.
                            This gon' be good.

                            So nontheist JimL, how do you answer challenge of greatgreatgreatgrandpappy of yours, Hume?
                            Remember that you are dust and to dust you shall return.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Doug Shaver View Post
                              Then you're assuming your conclusion and thus presenting a circular argument.
                              I didn't present an argument at all, I asked a question, one which you still haven't answered.

                              Originally posted by Doug Shaver View Post
                              Because there are always consequences, whether or not there is accountability.
                              Yes, and immoral behavior can sometimes have good consequences, or the bad consequences can be mitigated or avoided, or in other cases, the negative consequences are outweighed by the benefits, so why ought one always behave morally? As I said earlier, situational ethics and pragmatism would suggest that one should always seek the most reward/least risk regardless of any moral consideration.
                              Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                              But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                              Than a fool in the eyes of God


                              From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                                I didn't present an argument at all, I asked a question, one which you still haven't answered.
                                Your question presupposed an argument against consequentialism, which is contained in your next comment.

                                Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                                immoral behavior can sometimes have good consequences, or the bad consequences can be mitigated or avoided, or in other cases, the negative consequences are outweighed by the benefits
                                If any behavior has good consequences and only good consequences, then what, in your judgment, could make it immoral?

                                Comment

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