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To what extent can ethics be anchored in reason?

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  • #61
    Originally posted by seer View Post
    We are Christians, we follow the moral teachings of Christ and the New Testament in general.
    Do you hate your parents?

    Do you give up all your worldly goods bar the clothes on your back?

    I expect the answer to both is no. The reality is that Christians interpret what Jesus said. At one time a lot of Christians thought slavery was moral, now none do, so clearly Christian morality is not consistent. Abortion and homosexuality are two other examples where Christians disagree. Some of them MUST be wrong, and therefore Christian morality is not perfect.

    The difference between Christians and atheists, as far as I can see, is that each Christian thinks his or her moral opinion is perfect.
    How does the atheist know what is right? Logically he could make anything up and call it right. And Christian motivation is not the fear of God, but the love for God.
    How does the Christian know what is right? Is homosexuality okay? How have you come to your opinion, whatever it is?
    My Blog: http://oncreationism.blogspot.co.uk/

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by seer View Post
      No Jim, I think they set restrictions and parameters on a widely accepted institution. Scripture never makes a moral judgement on Slavery, doesn't call it good or bad.
      It states that gentile slaves can be kept for life, and it does state that slave owners who seriously beat their slaves are not to be punished. In what sense is that setting parameters?

      Setting parameters on a widely accepted institution would be saying all slaves should be treated well. This was a set of laws for the Hebrews, so I can understand why the Hebrews said only Hebrew slaves should be treated well; they were protecting their own, and did not give a hoot about the gentiles. How does that work if this was an instruction from God?

      Frankly, the fact that scripture never makes a moral judgement on slavery is enough for me to reject it as a moral guide.

      ... If you were born a white man two hundred years ago in the South you would likely had no problem with slavery. Your moral sense is completely relative and useless.
      That is also true of a Christian born a white man two hundred years ago in the South! I guess we can conclude Christianity's moral sense is completely relative and useless.
      Last edited by The Pixie; 11-07-2017, 04:37 PM.
      My Blog: http://oncreationism.blogspot.co.uk/

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by The Pixie View Post
        Do you hate your parents?
        You know what Christ's point was with that teaching. Don't play stupid.

        Do you give up all your worldly goods bar the clothes on your back?
        Same here...

        I expect the answer to both is no. The reality is that Christians interpret what Jesus said. At one time a lot of Christians thought slavery was moral, now none do, so clearly Christian morality is not consistent. Abortion and homosexuality are two other examples where Christians disagree. Some of them MUST be wrong, and therefore Christian morality is not perfect.
        Yes it is consistent, we may not be - but that is a different story. On all these questions there is a right answer even if we get it wrong at times.

        The difference between Christians and atheists, as far as I can see, is that each Christian thinks his or her moral opinion is perfect.
        No the difference is that Christians believe that there are universal moral truths, that we live in a moral and just universe rather than an unjust and a-moral universe.

        How does the Christian know what is right? Is homosexuality okay? How have you come to your opinion, whatever it is?
        No homosexuality is immoral according to Scripture. I would be happy to debate it.
        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

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        • #64
          Originally posted by seer View Post
          How does the atheist know what is right? Logically he could make anything up and call it right.
          If you believe that, then you know little about either atheism or logic.

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by seer View Post
            You know what Christ's point was with that teaching. Don't play stupid.

            Same here...
            Sure, they were rhetorical questions. The point was that you have to interpret what Jesus said, and your interpretation could be wrong.
            Yes it is consistent, we may not be - but that is a different story. On all these questions there is a right answer even if we get it wrong at times.
            We are talking about two different things. I am talking about the morality of a Christian, rather than the morality given by God. Two Christians can have very different opinions on morality, therefore one of them must be wrong - as you concede.

            Atheists are just like that - but without the dogmatic belief that we are right.
            No the difference is that Christians believe that there are universal moral truths, that we live in a moral and just universe rather than an unjust and a-moral universe.
            Actually I believe there are universal moral truths. And I do not think they are merely the opinion of God.
            No homosexuality is immoral according to Scripture. I would be happy to debate it.
            That is your opinion on what scripture says, but other Christians have a different opinion. Nevertheless you present it as fact; this is what makes Christian morality different, the dogmatic belief that it is right - whatever it is.
            My Blog: http://oncreationism.blogspot.co.uk/

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by seer View Post


              Yes it is consistent, we may not be - but that is a different story. On all these questions there is a right answer even if we get it wrong at times.
              Who decides what is the "right answer" if various Christians interpret scripture differently...the pope?

              No the difference is that Christians believe that there are universal moral truths, that we live in a moral and just universe rather than an unjust and a-moral universe.
              There can be no way to resolve conflicts about moral issues when members of competing Christian denominations hold different interpretations of Jesus’ words which are mutually exclusive.

              No homosexuality is immoral according to Scripture. I would be happy to debate it.
              No, homosexuality is immoral according to YOUR interpretation of Scripture. Other Christians interpret scripture differently. Jesus himself never mentions homosexuality.
              “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by Doug Shaver View Post
                If you believe that, then you know little about either atheism or logic.
                Really? The Maoists or Stalinists can't make up their own moral code? And I can't seem to find the atheist moral code anywhere.
                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by The Pixie View Post
                  Sure, they were rhetorical questions. The point was that you have to interpret what Jesus said, and your interpretation could be wrong.
                  So you are not disagreeing with me - because it is obvious. Christ often used hyperbole to make a moral point, that is why his followers did not go around plucking their eyes out because the eye offended. That is not so much an interpretation, but rather understanding how Christ taught in the wider context.

                  We are talking about two different things. I am talking about the morality of a Christian, rather than the morality given by God. Two Christians can have very different opinions on morality, therefore one of them must be wrong - as you concede.
                  That is what I said, we can get things wrong. Having said that though, I have met or known hundreds of Christians in my 27 years as a Christian, in a number of different denominations, and we are pretty much on the same page when it comes to moral teachings. Differences more often come along the lines of Eschatology.

                  Atheists are just like that - but without the dogmatic belief that we are right.
                  Do you speak for all atheists now?

                  Actually I believe there are universal moral truths. And I do not think they are merely the opinion of God.
                  Well I have never seen a good argument for the existence of universal moral truths apart from some form of Deity. But you could surprise me - go ahead!

                  That is your opinion on what scripture says, but other Christians have a different opinion. Nevertheless you present it as fact; this is what makes Christian morality different, the dogmatic belief that it is right - whatever it is.
                  Actually no, it is what Scripture clearly teaches. Believe me, I have attended liberal Churches, they always end up denying what the text says.
                  Last edited by seer; 11-08-2017, 07:33 AM.
                  Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                    Who decides what is the "right answer" if various Christians interpret scripture differently...the pope?
                    Let's take one moral behavior - adultery. That is clearly a moral wrong in Scripture, who interprets that differently - without denying what the texts actually say?
                    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by seer View Post
                      That is not so much an interpretation, but rather understanding how Christ taught in the wider context.
                      What is the difference? Look at giving away all your worldly goods; that is what the disciples actually did. Why have you chosen to interpret thast as hyperbole, while the disciples did not?
                      That is what I said, we can get things wrong. Having said that though, I have met or known hundreds of Christians in my 27 years as a Christian, in a number of different denominations, and we are pretty much on the same page when it comes to moral teachings. Differences more often come along the lines of Eschatology.
                      Bizarrely, most atheists I have ever met broadly agree on morality too. Almost like morality is a product of our culture.
                      Do you speak for all atheists now?
                      In the same way that you speak for all Christians.
                      Well I have never seen a good argument for the existence of universal moral truths apart from some form of Deity. But you could surprise me - go ahead!
                      Just to be clear, this is just my opinion, but I suspect that there is a universal moral truth that exists in the abstract just as the laws of geometry exist in the abstract.

                      From a theistic perspective, either murder is wrong because that is a universal truth, or because your god decided arbitrarily to make murder wrong. If you think the former, you are on the same page as me.
                      Actually no, it is what Scripture clearly teaches. Believe me, I have attended liberal Churches, they always end up denying what the text says.
                      Some Christians are absolutely sure scripture teaches that homosexuality is wrong, and others that it is okay. A couple of centuries ago plenty of Christians were absolutely sure scripture teaches that slavery is acceptable, and nowadays Christians are equally sure it does not.

                      All we can really conclude is that Christians are sometimes wrong, no matter how dogmatic their beliefs.

                      That is okay, atheists are sometimes wrong too. Just less dogmatic.
                      My Blog: http://oncreationism.blogspot.co.uk/

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by seer View Post
                        Let's take one moral behavior - adultery. That is clearly a moral wrong in Scripture, who interprets that differently - without denying what the texts actually say?
                        Coincidentally I am debating a Christian about adultery on another site, and he may be saying that adultery is not wrong (but I admit I am not sure).
                        http://www.doxa.ws/forum/viewtopic.p...=4745&start=20
                        My Blog: http://oncreationism.blogspot.co.uk/

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by The Pixie View Post
                          Coincidentally I am debating a Christian about adultery on another site, and he may be saying that adultery is not wrong (but I admit I am not sure).
                          That's nice bring him here... Yet I don't know any organized Christian Church or Council or Denomination that would agree.
                          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by The Pixie View Post
                            What is the difference? Look at giving away all your worldly goods; that is what the disciples actually did. Why have you chosen to interpret thast as hyperbole, while the disciples did not?
                            The early Church sold a lot of their property, but many didn't - there were still a number of well off Christians in that time (Also see Acts 5:4). The point was to be generous, to a fault. Don't be controlled by the things of this world, which is consistent with the rest of Christ's teachings.

                            Bizarrely, most atheists I have ever met broadly agree on morality too. Almost like morality is a product of our culture.
                            So if you lived in Mao's China you probably would not have had a problem with executing dissidents.


                            In the same way that you speak for all Christians.
                            No, but what I do do is try and understand these things in context. You have nothing to understand...

                            Just to be clear, this is just my opinion, but I suspect that there is a universal moral truth that exists in the abstract just as the laws of geometry exist in the abstract.
                            How exactly does that work?

                            From a theistic perspective, either murder is wrong because that is a universal truth, or because your god decided arbitrarily to make murder wrong. If you think the former, you are on the same page as me.
                            It is a universal truth because God is a universal mind. Ethics comes from minds.

                            Some Christians are absolutely sure scripture teaches that homosexuality is wrong, and others that it is okay. A couple of centuries ago plenty of Christians were absolutely sure scripture teaches that slavery is acceptable, and nowadays Christians are equally sure it does not.
                            You are wrong about the slavery thing, and I would be happy to debate any Christian on the issue, and have in the past. They will end up denying Scripture. I have seen it time and time again.

                            All we can really conclude is that Christians are sometimes wrong, no matter how dogmatic their beliefs.

                            That is okay, atheists are sometimes wrong too. Just less dogmatic.
                            Except with atheism that is no morally right answer out there. With theism that possibility exists...
                            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by seer View Post
                              The early Church sold a lot of their property, but many didn't - there were still a number of well off Christians in that time (Also see Acts 5:4). The point was to be generous, to a fault. Don't be controlled by the things of this world, which is consistent with the rest of Christ's teachings.
                              Two of them got blasted by God for withholding their property.

                              But I was really thinking about the disciples who travelled with Jesus. They all followed Jesus' instruction and his example in giving away everything, and just keeping a small pot of communal money for day-to-day living.
                              So if you lived in Mao's China you probably would not have had a problem with executing dissidents.
                              And if you had lived in Europe a few centuries ago you probably would not have had a problem with burning witches.

                              Thankfully mankind's morality has improved over the years.
                              No, but what I do do is try and understand these things in context. You have nothing to understand...
                              What do you mean?
                              How exactly does that work?
                              I do not know.
                              It is a universal truth because God is a universal mind. Ethics comes from minds.
                              Ah, okay, so we are different. I think that murder is intrinsically bad, you think it is bad because God has decided it is.
                              You are wrong about the slavery thing, and I would be happy to debate any Christian on the issue, and have in the past. They will end up denying Scripture. I have seen it time and time again.
                              You are actually claiming Christians never used scripture to support slavery? Wow.
                              http://www.christianitytoday.com/his...d-slavery.html
                              Except with atheism that is no morally right answer out there. With theism that possibility exists...
                              I believe there are moral rights, even if we cannot be sure what they are. With theism, all you can do is hope your opinion matches the opinion of your god.
                              My Blog: http://oncreationism.blogspot.co.uk/

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by seer View Post
                                Let's take one moral behavior - adultery. That is clearly a moral wrong in Scripture, who interprets that differently - without denying what the texts actually say?
                                The Church nowadays allows divorce and remarriage in many instances, despite Jesus specifically saying in the texts that this constitutes adultery.

                                There are many such examples of scriptural reinterpretation to conform to the developing social mores of the day, e.g. the role of women, homosexuality, slavery and historically many American religions disapproved of interracial marriage on biblical grounds...until the SCOTUS ruling forbidding it.
                                Last edited by Tassman; 11-08-2017, 09:48 PM.
                                “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                                Comment

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