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Thread: Derail: Trinity question: The eternal Son before the incarnation

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    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    Derail: Trinity question: The eternal Son before the incarnation

    Quote Originally Posted by Rushing Jaws View Post
    Yes, the relations within the Trinity are eternal:

    the Son is eternally begotten by the Father
    the Father eternally begets the Son
    the Father and the Son spirate (breath forth) the Holy Spirit
    the Holy Spirit is eternally spirated.

    All four relations are eternally "within" God - unlike the Divine relations to creation, "outwith" God; for the relation of God to creation is dependent on there being a creation to be in relation to Him - otherwise we would have to say that the creation is co-eternal with God. Creation is "outwith" God, not locally, as though God werNoe spatially localised, but in the sense that it is "other than" God. And it is "other than" God, for the reason that it has no being but what He has graciously and sovereignly bestowed on it. Which is manifestly not true of the co-eternal Divine Persons, Who are God, not creatures.
    * The Trinity can be deduced from holy scripture.

    * The eternal Son is deduced from holy scripture without the concept of eternal begetting of the Son from the Father.

    The Son is God with the Father - God not begotten not made but on behalf of the Father the sole cause of all things that are caused (John 1;3; Ephesians 3:9; John 8:24).

    So how do you come to your understanding?
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

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    tWebber Rushing Jaws's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 37818 View Post
    * The Trinity can be deduced from holy scripture.

    * The eternal Son is deduced from holy scripture without the concept of eternal begetting of the Son from the Father.

    The Son is God with the Father - God not begotten not made but on behalf of the Father the sole cause of all things that are caused (John 1;3; Ephesians 3:9; John 8:24).

    So how do you come to your understanding?
    By consulting reason, Sacred Tradition, and Sacred Scripture as explained within Sacred Tradition. Scripture by itself need not lead to the orthodox doctrine of the Trinity, or even to any kind of Trinitarian doctrine. The Arians, Adoptionists, Sabellians, and others appealed to Scripture, as do the JWs now, or the Socinians, Unitarians, Oneness Pentecostals, and even the Mormons.

    Catholic Trinitarian doctrine owes a lot to St Augustine, and to St Thomas Aquinas, but especially to the Fathers and Councils, like St Basil of Caesarea, the two Gregories, Leontius of Byzantium, St Cyril of Alexandria, St John Chrysostom, St Athanasius, Lateran 4 (1215), and others.

    That the Word can be argued from Scripture to be eternal, does not by itself lead to an orthodox Christology. It can perfectly well be argued, from Scripture, that the Word was not personally united with the Sacred Humanity of Christ except during the Earthly Life of Christ. Just as it can be argued from Scripture that Christ was not sinless.

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    tWebber tabibito's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rushing Jaws View Post
    By consulting reason, Sacred Tradition, and Sacred Scripture as explained within Sacred Tradition. Scripture by itself need not lead to the orthodox doctrine of the Trinity, or even to any kind of Trinitarian doctrine. The Arians, Adoptionists, Sabellians, and others appealed to Scripture, as do the JWs now, or the Socinians, Unitarians, Oneness Pentecostals, and even the Mormons.
    Exegesis leads inexorably to the basic trinitarian concept, but there is some room for argument about the precise nature of the trinity. Eisegesis of course allows for any number of concepts.



    [quot]That the Word can be argued from Scripture to be eternal, does not by itself lead to an orthodox Christology. It can perfectly well be argued, from Scripture, that the Word was not personally united with the Sacred Humanity of Christ except during the Earthly Life of Christ. Just as it can be argued from Scripture that Christ was not sinless.[/QUOTE]

    How so? - tis stated explicitly that the word became flesh.
    και εκζητησατε με και ευρησετε με οτι ζητησετε με εν ολη καρδία υμων

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    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by 37818 View Post
    * The Trinity can be deduced from holy scripture.

    * The eternal Son is deduced from holy scripture without the concept of eternal begetting of the Son from the Father.

    The Son is God with the Father - God not begotten not made but on behalf of the Father the sole cause of all things that are caused (John 1;3; Ephesians 3:9; John 8:24).

    So how do you come to your understanding?
    Revelation 3:14
    “To the angel of the congregation in Laodiceʹa write: These are the things that the Amen says [JESUS], the faithful and true witness {JESUS}, the beginning of the creation by God:

    "Not begotten"?????

    BU

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    tWebber tabibito's Avatar
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    αρχη "beginning" also means "origin/source." The "beginning" can be interpreted as "origin/source" as readily as it can "the first of a series."

    No kewpie dolls available for basing a precept on the unsupported interpretation of an ambiguous text.

    Particularly when it is explicitly stated that "without him was nothing created that was created." - which is not in conflict with interpreting αρχη as "origin" or "source."
    Last edited by tabibito; 12-21-2017 at 05:39 AM.
    και εκζητησατε με και ευρησετε με οτι ζητησετε με εν ολη καρδία υμων

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    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bibleuser View Post
    Revelation 3:14
    “To the angel of the congregation in Laodiceʹa write: These are the things that the Amen says [JESUS], the faithful and true witness {JESUS}, the beginning of the creation by God:

    "Not begotten"?????

    BU
    Colossians 1:18, ". . . who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; . . ."
    Revelation 1:5, ". . . Jesus Christ, [who is] the faithful witness, and the firstborn of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto Him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in His own blood, . . ."
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

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    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by 37818 View Post
    Colossians 1:18, ". . . who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; . . ."
    Revelation 1:5, ". . . Jesus Christ, [who is] the faithful witness, and the firstborn of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto Him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in His own blood, . . ."
    Almighty God cannot be "firstborn" of anything as he has always been!
    BU

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    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bibleuser View Post
    Almighty God cannot be "firstborn" of anything as he has always been!
    BU
    And who in this thread said God did?

    Who became incarnate (John 1:14)? Who was "firstborn" from the dead (Romans 8:29; Colossians 1:15; Revelation 1:5)? Who being "incarnate" (John 1:14) became "the beginning" (Colossians 1:18; Revelation 1:5, Revelation 3:14)?
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

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