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MLK Jr: Orgy-loving degenerate?

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  • #31
    Originally posted by JimL View Post
    In our opinion Trump is guilty, in your opinion he is not, and though no doubt we are both somewhat biased, the evidence supports our opinion, not yours.
    You have absolutely NO Evidence Jimmy. Nada. Zip.

    I don't know if he is guilty, but I see no indications that he is. Everything I see points to a campaign paid for by Clinton and the DNC to smear Trump, which is finally being exposed and coming back to bite Clinton.

    Comment


    • #32
      Most of the speculation on Hoover is just that, particularly the cross-dressing stuff. As one historian on Reddit's Ask Historians put it,

      This is one of those pieces of bad history which pop culture hasn't yet realized historians have repeatedly debunked. The whole idea stems from the 1993 biography of J Edgar Hoover Official and Confidential: The Secret Life of J. Edgar Hoover. by Anthony Summers. I like how another Hoover biographist, Anton Theoharis, puts it
      "Summers's sources, if undeniably imaginative, provide no credible documentation for what amounts to no more than gossipy character assassination"

      It's not an embellishment, it's malarkey. Basically that 1993 biography made these claims relying only Susan Rosenstiel (a disreputable source with a history of perjury who also had an axe to grind with Hoover and the Bureau who was also being paid for her content by the biographer). It nonetheless exploded into popular culture.
      [Regarding questions of Hoover being the target of blackmail]

      This actually provides some of the strongest evidence debunking Rosenstiel's claims. The 1993 book by Summers also alleges the mob was blackmailing Hoover (This "fact" was pretty strongly debunked in the 2002 book by Ronald Kessler FBI, The Bureau: The Secret History of the FBI. The book in general does a good job summarizing the entire story). Its been a while since i picked it up but the criminal group in question was already being wiretapped (thus that information wouldn't even have to have been leaked) and there's strong evidence of Hoover continuing to press strongly against the mob despite some internal pushback after the alleged incidents had taken place. In addition there's strong evidence that if this had happened specific other people at the FBI (who were physically around Hoover all the time) would have known and that information should have come up.

      tl;dr it's badhistory. No current credible scholar of Hoover or the FBI supports the claim and even Summers has backed off of this a bit.


      Hoover may have been secretly gay, and at least couple of his acquaintances and a number of his enemies had hinted at it, but no one really knows for sure, and there's no absolute evidence one way or the other.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Adrift View Post
        Most of the speculation on Hoover is just that, particularly the cross-dressing stuff. As one historian on Reddit's Ask Historians put it,

        This is one of those pieces of bad history which pop culture hasn't yet realized historians have repeatedly debunked. The whole idea stems from the 1993 biography of J Edgar Hoover Official and Confidential: The Secret Life of J. Edgar Hoover. by Anthony Summers. I like how another Hoover biographist, Anton Theoharis, puts it
        "Summers's sources, if undeniably imaginative, provide no credible documentation for what amounts to no more than gossipy character assassination"

        It's not an embellishment, it's malarkey. Basically that 1993 biography made these claims relying only Susan Rosenstiel (a disreputable source with a history of perjury who also had an axe to grind with Hoover and the Bureau who was also being paid for her content by the biographer). It nonetheless exploded into popular culture.
        [Regarding questions of Hoover being the target of blackmail]

        This actually provides some of the strongest evidence debunking Rosenstiel's claims. The 1993 book by Summers also alleges the mob was blackmailing Hoover (This "fact" was pretty strongly debunked in the 2002 book by Ronald Kessler FBI, The Bureau: The Secret History of the FBI. The book in general does a good job summarizing the entire story). Its been a while since i picked it up but the criminal group in question was already being wiretapped (thus that information wouldn't even have to have been leaked) and there's strong evidence of Hoover continuing to press strongly against the mob despite some internal pushback after the alleged incidents had taken place. In addition there's strong evidence that if this had happened specific other people at the FBI (who were physically around Hoover all the time) would have known and that information should have come up.

        tl;dr it's badhistory. No current credible scholar of Hoover or the FBI supports the claim and even Summers has backed off of this a bit.


        Hoover may have been secretly gay, and at least couple of his acquaintances and a number of his enemies had hinted at it, but no one really knows for sure, and there's no absolute evidence one way or the other.
        As Thomas Doherty noted about the accusation in his book Cold War, Cool Medium: Television, McCarthyism, and American Culture: "For American popular culture, the image of the zaftig FBI director as a Christine Jorgensen wanna-be was too delicious not to savor."


        And as I pointed out in post #24 "by the time of his death he was so universally despised for how he intimidated and outright blackmailed people that it gained credence because people wanted it to be true and nobody wanted to defend him."

        I'm always still in trouble again

        "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
        "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
        "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by JimL View Post
          In our opinion Trump is guilty
          They've appointed you as spokesperson?

          And you have demonstrated this lack of respect and/or understanding of the presumption of innocence on many occasions. "Lock em' up - lock 'em ALL up"!
          Last edited by Cow Poke; 11-06-2017, 01:42 PM.
          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Adrift View Post
            Most of the speculation on Hoover is just that, particularly the cross-dressing stuff. As one historian on Reddit's Ask Historians put it,

            This is one of those pieces of bad history which pop culture hasn't yet realized historians have repeatedly debunked. The whole idea stems from the 1993 biography of J Edgar Hoover Official and Confidential: The Secret Life of J. Edgar Hoover. by Anthony Summers. I like how another Hoover biographist, Anton Theoharis, puts it
            "Summers's sources, if undeniably imaginative, provide no credible documentation for what amounts to no more than gossipy character assassination"

            It's not an embellishment, it's malarkey. Basically that 1993 biography made these claims relying only Susan Rosenstiel (a disreputable source with a history of perjury who also had an axe to grind with Hoover and the Bureau who was also being paid for her content by the biographer). It nonetheless exploded into popular culture.
            [Regarding questions of Hoover being the target of blackmail]

            This actually provides some of the strongest evidence debunking Rosenstiel's claims. The 1993 book by Summers also alleges the mob was blackmailing Hoover (This "fact" was pretty strongly debunked in the 2002 book by Ronald Kessler FBI, The Bureau: The Secret History of the FBI. The book in general does a good job summarizing the entire story). Its been a while since i picked it up but the criminal group in question was already being wiretapped (thus that information wouldn't even have to have been leaked) and there's strong evidence of Hoover continuing to press strongly against the mob despite some internal pushback after the alleged incidents had taken place. In addition there's strong evidence that if this had happened specific other people at the FBI (who were physically around Hoover all the time) would have known and that information should have come up.

            tl;dr it's badhistory. No current credible scholar of Hoover or the FBI supports the claim and even Summers has backed off of this a bit.


            Hoover may have been secretly gay, and at least couple of his acquaintances and a number of his enemies had hinted at it, but no one really knows for sure, and there's no absolute evidence one way or the other.
            That's pretty much what I have found.
            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
              That's pretty much what I have found.
              Well I heard he invented his own brand of vacuum cleaners because he liked to dress up like a housewife and clean homes so he could spy on people.

              Comment


              • #37
                I can't wait to see how Tass extricates his foot from his mouth once he realizes that he described the sexuality of cross dressers as "highly suspect".

                Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                Than a fool in the eyes of God


                From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                  I can't wait to see how Tass extricates his foot from his mouth once he realizes that he described the sexuality of cross dressers as "highly suspect".
                  I was responding to CP’s comment about Hoover’s sex life being “quite different”. And whilst I have no problem with “quite different” sex lives (provided no exploitation occurs) I very much question Hoover’s cynical amassing of intimate details (often embellished reportedly) concerning re the "different" sex lives of those he was seeking to harm via blackmail etc...given that he himself was guilty of behaviour which was socially unacceptable at the time.
                  “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                    How about you just read all the posts by Starlight, JimL, Tassman, and yourself on the topic? You all have already judged Trump guilty based only on the accusations and rumors.
                    There’s considerably more than just “accusations and rumours”. Clearly there’s sufficient evidence to warrant several Congressional hearings plus an investigation by special counsel Mueller. We await the outcome with interest.
                    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Tassmoron View Post
                      I was responding to CP’s comment about Hoover’s sex life being “quite different”. And whilst I have no problem with “quite different” sex lives (provided no exploitation occurs) I very much question Hoover’s cynical amassing of intimate details (often embellished reportedly) concerning re the "different" sex lives of those he was seeking to harm via blackmail etc...given that he himself was guilty of behaviour which was socially unacceptable at the time.


                      That was certainly a heroic attempt to get yourself out of a jam, but you still described a cross-dressers' sexuality as "highly suspect". I suspect you let your guard down and accidentally told the truth about what you really think.
                      Last edited by Mountain Man; 11-07-2017, 07:33 AM.
                      Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                      But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                      Than a fool in the eyes of God


                      From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post


                        That was certainly a heroic attempt to get yourself out of a jam, but you still described a cross-dresser's sexuality as "highly suspect". I suspect you let your guard down and accidentally told the truth about what you really think.
                        Quite a kabuki dance, indeed.
                        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                          I was responding to CP’s comment about Hoover’s sex life being “quite different”. And whilst I have no problem with “quite different” sex lives (provided no exploitation occurs) I very much question Hoover’s cynical amassing of intimate details (often embellished reportedly) concerning re the "different" sex lives of those he was seeking to harm via blackmail etc...given that he himself was guilty of behaviour which was socially unacceptable at the time.
                          "Quite different" and "highly suspect" are hardly synonyms. Moreover, there is no actual evidence that Hoover was a cross-dresser with historians and biographers dismissing the allegation as an unfounded rumor so it is more than a stretch to say that he was "guilty" of it.

                          I'm always still in trouble again

                          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                            There’s considerably more than just “accusations and rumours”. Clearly there’s sufficient evidence to warrant several Congressional hearings plus an investigation by special counsel Mueller. We await the outcome with interest.
                            List it.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                              "Quite different" and "highly suspect" are hardly synonyms. Moreover, there is no actual evidence that Hoover was a cross-dresser with historians and biographers dismissing the allegation as an unfounded rumor so it is more than a stretch to say that he was "guilty" of it.
                              But so what if he was? I mean as far as liberals are concerned. Shouldn't a good liberal like Tassman be rejoicing in Hoover's "fluid" sexuality instead of condemning it as "highly suspect"?
                              Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                              But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                              Than a fool in the eyes of God


                              From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                                But so what if he was? I mean as far as liberals are concerned. Shouldn't a good liberal like Tassman be rejoicing in Hoover's "fluid" sexuality instead of condemning it as "highly suspect"?
                                I think he clearly slipped up. While he may have actually been focusing on the hypocrisy factor, he (as liberals often do) accidentally told the truth about something else.
                                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                                Comment

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