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  • Originally posted by Terraceth View Post
    Well... if someone is a preterist, then "sitting around twiddling their thumbs all day" is generally a pretty apt description of what they believe Satan is doing.
    This is one of the biggest reasons I don't accept preterism. I've seen too much, both in person, and in past accounts to see Satan and the demons as "bound" at any point in history.

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    • Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
      This is one of the biggest reasons I don't accept preterism. I've seen too much, both in person, and in past accounts to see Satan and the demons as "bound" at any point in history.
      Please note that preterism only sees Satan bound, not his minions.
      Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

      Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
      sigpic
      I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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      • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
        Please note that preterism only sees Satan bound, not his minions.
        Kinda like a drug lord running his cartel from prison.
        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
          Please note that preterism only sees Satan bound, not his minions.
          I know I've seen some preterists say that the demons are bound too. It's been a long time since then though, so details on which ones are sketchy right now. Either way, I can't see Satan as bound in any point in history. Nor do I know of any examples in the history of Christianity until recent preterists that say he's bound.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
            I know I've seen some preterists say that the demons are bound too. It's been a long time since then though, so details on which ones are sketchy right now. Either way, I can't see Satan as bound in any point in history. Nor do I know of any examples in the history of Christianity until recent preterists that say he's bound.
            Actually, the general amil position is that Satan is bound - and amil was more or less the consensus position of the church for much of church history.
            Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

            Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
            sigpic
            I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Adrift View Post
              Probably one of the big reasons why I could never be a preterist. I think it's pretty obvious that demonic forces are still active and that "our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world rulers of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavens" is just as applicable today as it was in the 1st century.
              Belief in Satan being bound isn't reserved to just preterism It's part of amillenialism in general, though to what extent the binding constrains him is a matter of disagreement.

              At any rate, I have to disagree, as while I can see supernatural satanic forces meddling in the world in the present as being behind the world's problems as possible, I don't see any particular reason to believe they are a required component.
              Last edited by Terraceth; 11-14-2017, 05:17 PM.

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              • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                Actually, the general amil position is that Satan is bound - and amil was more or less the consensus position of the church for much of church history.
                Thanks for the info. From what I've been able to find on the internet* amillenialism didn't really appear until Augustine. At least not explicitly.

                *I know not all of the info is reliable, and admit this is a cursory search. I don't have access to a library, so I'm limited to the internet.

                Originally posted by Terraceth View Post
                Belief in Satan being bound isn't reserved to just preterism It's part of amillenialism in general, though to what extent the binding constrains him is a matter of disagreement.

                At any rate, I have to disagree, as while I can see supernatural satanic forces meddling in the world in the present as being behind the world's problems as possible, I don't see any particular reason to believe they are a required component.
                If the description in Revelation isn't a picture of complete, and total cessation of Satan's powers, then it's impossible to make sense of the text.

                I've seen far too much of demonic, and even Satanic activity, either directly, or through the acts of others to think it's not a major issue with the world. If this is Satan "bound" then I don't want to see him "released" even if it is "for a short time".

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                • Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
                  If the description in Revelation isn't a picture of complete, and total cessation of Satan's powers, then it's impossible to make sense of the text.
                  I don't think this conclusion is necessary; Revelation is filled with hyperbole, symbols, and picture language. The "complete" binding of Satan could easily be a hyperbolic symbolizing a general limiting of Satan's powers.

                  Having said that, given the highly symbolic nature of Revelation, I think preterists who dogmatically interpret the binding of Satan and make theological conclusions based on that are overconfident in the correctness of their interpretation. Nobody knows for sure what all the symbols mean, but the general gist of Revelation is clear.
                  "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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                  • Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
                    Thanks for the info. From what I've been able to find on the internet* amillenialism didn't really appear until Augustine. At least not explicitly.

                    *I know not all of the info is reliable, and admit this is a cursory search. I don't have access to a library, so I'm limited to the internet.
                    Based on my own reading of early church writings, this seems to be more or less correct. While OBP may be technically correct that the amillennial view was the prominent view for most of church history, the early Christian writers seem to have been mostly Chiliasts.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                      Based on my own reading of early church writings, this seems to be more or less correct. While OBP may be technically correct that the amillennial view was the prominent view for most of church history, the early Christian writers seem to have been mostly Chiliasts.
                      There were a significant number of Christians as early as the second century who held to a less literal view of the millennium, according to Justin Martyr, himself a chiliast:

                      I admitted to you formerly, that I and many others are of this opinion, and [believe] that such will take place, as you assuredly are aware; but, on the other hand, I signified to you that many who belong to the pure and pious faith, and are true Christians, think otherwise.
                      ( https://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf...i.iv.lxxx.html )
                      "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                        There were a significant number of Christians as early as the second century who held to a less literal view of the millennium, according to Justin Martyr, himself a chiliast:

                        ( https://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf...i.iv.lxxx.html )
                        Right, but as Eusebius points out in his (in)famous critique of Papias,
                        "Papias reproduces other stories communicated to him by word of mouth, together with some otherwise unknown parables and teachings of the Saviour, and other things of a more allegorical character. He says that after the resurrection of the dead there will be a period of a thousand years, when Christ's kingdom will be set up on this earth in material form. I suppose he got these notions by misinterpreting the apostolic accounts and failing to grasp what they had said in mystic and symbolic language. For he seems to have been a man of very small intelligence, to judge from his books. But it is partly due to him that the great majority of churchmen after him took the same view, relying on his early date; e.g. Irenaeus and several others, who clearly held the same opinion." - The History of the Church, Book 3:39

                        So at least up until the 4th century, and probably as late as the 5th, if not later, it seemed to be the predominant view of the church.

                        Comment


                        • Could we maybe take this interesting but unrelated discussion elsewhere, please?
                          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                            Could we maybe take this interesting but unrelated discussion elsewhere, please?
                            Probably, but I'm not a mod, so I don't know about these things.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                              Probably, but I'm not a mod, so I don't know about these things.
                              Meh, no harm, no foul.
                              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                                Based on my own reading of early church writings, this seems to be more or less correct. While OBP may be technically correct that the amillennial view was the prominent view for most of church history, the early Christian writers seem to have been mostly Chiliasts.
                                Yeah, I'd say that pre-Nicaea, the majority of writings which have survived lean Chiliast. Chiliasm was condemned as heretical somewhere around then, and Revelation mostly fell out of favor for a while, especially in the East (it was rehabilitated among Greeks in the 6th century by Andrew of Caesarea's commentary, and IIRC it was accepted by the Syrians a couple centuries later; the Armenian church, AFAIK, never did accept it as canonical).
                                Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                                Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                                sigpic
                                I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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