27 Christians Murdered In Texas Church...

[Cow Poke]

Somebody doesn't have to be "demon possessed" to carry out this kind of carnage. It could be something like having no godly influence to offset the evil desires of the heart, which the Bible says is "desperately wicked, who can know it?"

[One Bad Pig]

Somebody doesn't have to be "demon possessed" to carry out this kind of carnage. It could be something like having no godly influence to offset the evil desires of the heart, which the Bible says is "desperately wicked, who can know it?"

Not at all, but in this case I'd lean toward it.

[seer]

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[Cow Poke]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]24888[/ATTACH]

Yeah!

[Cow Poke]

Not at all, but in this case I'd lean toward it.

In this case, I would certainly not argue against it.

[NorrinRadd]

Eh, Saul experienced an evil spirit that tormented him, and he seemed rather cold and calculating. Judas was possessed, and he seemed pretty cold and calculating. The prophesying slave girl in Acts seemed relatively calculating in her attempt to mock the men of God.

Saul's case is problematic because it explicitly and repeatedly says that the evil spirit came "from God."

I am not aware of any text saying Judas was "possessed." The closest might be when Jesus told the group, "One of you is a devil." If that's the basis for the claim, why not also claim that Peter was "possessed" by satan, since Jesus directly said to him, "Get behind me, satan!"

I'm honestly not sure what to make of the Acts 16 case. I don't see anything that implies she was "mocking." And yet Paul did become greatly annoyed, and expelled the spirit without even being asked to do so. In any case, she wasn't violent.

The idea that belief in demonic possession and oppression can be boiled down to "Da debbil made me do it" is a little silly and simplistic. It's been my experience that too many thinking Christians find talk of satan and evil spirits embarrassing. Like, it's cool to believe in God, but you know, keep the whole demons thing under wraps. You don't want people to think you're a weirdo or anything. But, you know, the Bible discusses the spiritual realm quite a bit, and it's simply a fact that demons are part of the Christian worldview. The Adversary hates us, and wants nothing more than to throw a monkey wrench into God's plans for us. He and his agents aren't simply sitting around twiddling their thumbs all day. They're doing something, and scripture, while maybe not going into great detail, does paint a picture of that something. Scholars like Michael Heiser have been doing a great job pointing out how much scripture actually does discuss the nature and role of demons in the spiritual realm (I highly suggest his book The Unseen Realm). That said, of course I don't believe there's a demon in every bush. I ultimately agree with Lewis who said, "There are two equal and opposite errors into which our race can fall about the devils. One is to disbelieve in their existence. The other is to believe, and to feel an excessive and unhealthy interest in them. They themselves are equally pleased by both errors and hail a materialist or a magician with the same delight."

I'll keep that book in mind.

If we do accept the premise that people such as that shooter are under the control of demons, then ISTM we are left with the problem FF suggested. In Scripture, we have no evidence that anyone was punished for the violence committed while under demonic influence. They were themselves regarded as victims.

[Adrift]

Saul's case is problematic because it explicitly and repeatedly says that the evil spirit came "from God."

In the Old Testament just about everything comes from God. It's part of the ancient Hebrew idea of always ensuring that God is seen alone as sovereign. Job is tempted by the ha-satan because God allows it. The angel of death was given free reign to kill all of the first born during the Passover because God allowed it. Saul is tormented by an evil spirit because God allows it.

Source: 1 Samuel - 2 Kings by Tremper Longman, and David E. Garland

That God uses alien spirits to serve him is taken for granted in the OT (cf. esp. 2Sa 24:1 with 1 Ch 21:1). On occasion God's people "were not very concerned with determining secondary causes and properly attributing them to the exact cause. Under the divine providence everything ultimately was attributed to him; why not say he did it in the first place?" (Walter C. Kaiser Jr., Hard Sayings, 131; cf. Also Archer, 180: "Saul's evil bent was by the permission and plan of God. We must realize that in the last analysis all penal consequences come from God, as the Author of the moral law and the one who always does what is right [Ge. 18:25]"; cf. Fredrik Lindstrom, God and the Origin of Evil [Lund: Gleerup, 1983]).

© Copyright Original Source

If all we had was the Old Testament we might say that God has evil spirits on retainer, but we don't just have the Old Testament; We have further revelation in the New. So reading the Old Testament in light of the New, we know that there is a spiritual struggle between good and evil, and that Satan and evil spirits attempt to work against God's will, (though in the end everything works towards God's ultimate will and purposes, whether they intend to or not). We know that God is good, that he is light and that there is no darkness in him. That he is not the author of confusion, and that he cannot be tempted with evil, nor does he tempt with evil. We know that demons, which are hardly ever explicitly mentioned in the Old Testament, are mentioned with some regularity in the New. So, unless demons and possession didn't exist until the first century, and you want to say that God occasionally used to work with some sort of other evil spirits that are not the same as the evil spirits we encounter in the New Testament, then I think it's appropriate to see them as one and the same. Reading the 1 Samuel passages in this light, I believe an appropriate contextual understanding is one that sees God simply removing his hand of protection off of Saul for disobedience. The consequences of Saul's unlawful sacrifice and sins in chapter 13 and 15 is that God took his hand of protection away from Saul, which resulted in the spirit of the Lord leaving Saul, and an opportunity for an evil spirit to take advantage of the situation. But even where evil occurs or takes opportunity in contrast to God's desire for us, he is able to take what was intended as evil, flip it, and through it, produce good.

I am not aware of any text saying Judas was "possessed." The closest might be when Jesus told the group, "One of you is a devil." If that's the basis for the claim, why not also claim that Peter was "possessed" by satan, since Jesus directly said to him, "Get behind me, satan!"

Scripture Verse: Luke 22:1

Now the Festival of Unleavened Bread, called the Passover, was approaching, 2 and the chief priests and the teachers of the law were looking for some way to get rid of Jesus, for they were afraid of the people. 3 Then Satan entered Judas, called Iscariot, one of the Twelve. 4 And Judas went to the chief priests and the officers of the temple guard and discussed with them how he might betray Jesus. 5 They were delighted and agreed to give him money. 6 He consented, and watched for an opportunity to hand Jesus over to them when no crowd was present.

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Scripture Verse: John 13:26

Jesus answered, “It is the one to whom I will give this piece of bread when I have dipped it in the dish.” Then, dipping the piece of bread, he gave it to Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot. 27 As soon as Judas took the bread, Satan entered into him.

So Jesus told him, “What you are about to do, do quickly.” 28 But no one at the meal understood why Jesus said this to him. 29 Since Judas had charge of the money, some thought Jesus was telling him to buy what was needed for the festival, or to give something to the poor. 30 As soon as Judas had taken the bread, he went out. And it was night.

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I'm honestly not sure what to make of the Acts 16 case. I don't see anything that implies she was "mocking." And yet Paul did become greatly annoyed, and expelled the spirit without even being asked to do so. In any case, she wasn't violent.

Eh, a number of commentators suggest that what she was saying, and how she was repeating it could be construed as a sort of mocking, or at the very least, misleading, since, within her pagan context, it could sound like the Most High was the Most High of the listener's local pantheon, suggesting a connection with, say Zeus. At any rate, I mention her mostly because she's an example of a possessed person who isn't a raving lunatic like you seem to think happens to people in our Gerasene example.

If we do accept the premise that people such as that shooter are under the control of demons, then ISTM we are left with the problem FF suggested. In Scripture, we have no evidence that anyone was punished for the violence committed while under demonic influence. They were themselves regarded as victims.

Yeesh. You're a much better critical thinker than FF is. You should know better. If you're really in need of an answer to FF's suggestion, then check Thoughtful Monk's reply.

[seer]

If all we had was the Old Testament we might say that God has evil spirits on retainer, but we don't just have the Old Testament; We have further revelation in the New. So reading the Old Testament in light of the New, we know that there is a spiritual struggle between good and evil, and that Satan and evil spirits attempt to work against God's will, (though in the end everything works towards God's ultimate will and purposes, whether they intend to or not). We know that God is good, that he is light and that there is no darkness in him. That he is not the author of confusion, and that he cannot be tempted with evil, nor does he tempt with evil.

I often wonder why God didn't just remove the Devil and his minions - aren't we screwed up enough without their influence?

[Adrift]

I often wonder why God didn't just remove the Devil and his minions - aren't we screwed up enough without their influence?

I have a number of ideas about that, but it might deserve its own thread as we're getting pretty far off topic as is.

[NorrinRadd]

...

Scripture Verse: Luke 22:1

Now the Festival of Unleavened Bread, called the Passover, was approaching, 2 and the chief priests and the teachers of the law were looking for some way to get rid of Jesus, for they were afraid of the people. 3 Then Satan entered Judas, called Iscariot, one of the Twelve. 4 And Judas went to the chief priests and the officers of the temple guard and discussed with them how he might betray Jesus. 5 They were delighted and agreed to give him money. 6 He consented, and watched for an opportunity to hand Jesus over to them when no crowd was present.

© Copyright Original Source

Scripture Verse: John 13:26

Jesus answered, “It is the one to whom I will give this piece of bread when I have dipped it in the dish.” Then, dipping the piece of bread, he gave it to Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot. 27 As soon as Judas took the bread, Satan entered into him.

So Jesus told him, “What you are about to do, do quickly.” 28 But no one at the meal understood why Jesus said this to him. 29 Since Judas had charge of the money, some thought Jesus was telling him to buy what was needed for the festival, or to give something to the poor. 30 As soon as Judas had taken the bread, he went out. And it was night.

© Copyright Original Source

Excellent! I'd forgotten all about those passages. I'll try to factor them into my thinking.

[Terraceth]

The idea that belief in demonic possession and oppression can be boiled down to "Da debbil made me do it" is a little silly and simplistic. It's been my experience that too many thinking Christians find talk of satan and evil spirits embarrassing. Like, it's cool to believe in God, but you know, keep the whole demons thing under wraps. You don't want people to think you're a weirdo or anything. But, you know, the Bible discusses the spiritual realm quite a bit, and it's simply a fact that demons are part of the Christian worldview. The Adversary hates us, and wants nothing more than to throw a monkey wrench into God's plans for us. He and his agents aren't simply sitting around twiddling their thumbs all day.

Well... if someone is a preterist, then "sitting around twiddling their thumbs all day" is generally a pretty apt description of what they believe Satan is doing.

[One Bad Pig]

Well... if someone is a preterist, then "sitting around twiddling their thumbs all day" is generally a pretty apt description of what they believe Satan is doing.

Depends on the flavor of preterist, and how close to the end they think we are. In the a-mil camp, Satan gets released shortly before the end to wreak havoc.

[Terraceth]

Depends on the flavor of preterist, and how close to the end they think we are. In the a-mil camp, Satan gets released shortly before the end to wreak havoc.

True, which is why I said "generally." I know some believe Satan continued to influence matters in the world to some degree, although to a lesser extent than we see portrayed in the Bible.

[Cow Poke]

Meanwhile, we had our security briefing and active shooter training in Dallas this evening, and we heard from some of the survivors.

Thinking about how much I can say about that, but suffice it to say... wow.

[Adrift]

Well... if someone is a preterist, then "sitting around twiddling their thumbs all day" is generally a pretty apt description of what they believe Satan is doing.

Probably one of the big reasons why I could never be a preterist. I think it's pretty obvious that demonic forces are still active and that "our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world rulers of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavens" is just as applicable today as it was in the 1st century.