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Roy Moore accused of sexual contact with 14-year old

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  • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
    So the next time we discuss a pedophile having sex with a 12 or 13 year old and he claims it was "love" -- what excuse are you going to use to condemn his actions as immoral?
    FYI - that word doesn't mean what you think it does. You AREN'T discussing pedophilia at all.

    Also, a 12 year old is legally able to walk into a Health Department clinic and obtain STD treatment without parental consent.

    In your hypothetical, it's fornication and immoral on that basis. It's also rape and immoral on that basis. And illegal on yet another basis.

    But if Mom and Dad sign off on it, and/or a judge does, the kid can get married. It's still of highly questionable ethics, but neither illegal nor immoral so long as the kid consents.

    The parents and the judge are all insane but that's another issue.
    "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

    "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

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    • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
      So when they change the law and make pedophilia legal like they did gay marriage then you won't have a moral leg to stand on will you? and here we go with "emotional maturity" again. Make up your mind. I don't think a 16 year old is emotionally mature enough to date a 30 year old.
      *emphasis mine

      I fully agree. BUT that doesn't make the act inherently immoral - that's what MM is trying to get you to see.
      "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

      "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

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      • Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
        The point is that he would have to be an idiot to take her up on her offer of a Senate hearing.
        Okay... granted. But that's true of pretty much anyone no matter what the allegations. Senate hearings are circus' without the bread.
        "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

        "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

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        • Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
          I don't think the , and emoticons are enough to express my disgust of all the stuff rogue06 pointed out in response to me earlier. Do we have anything more powerful than those?
          I doubt any that strong would be Tweb friendly enough.
          "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

          "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

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          • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
            Muhammad had a six-year-old wife, Aisha, who he consummated his marriage with when she was the ripe age of nine.

            Please note that this is not what his enemies said about him – it's what his family and friends said! Apparently he had been fantasizing about her since she was four or five and the consummation would almost certainly have been earlier but she became ill for some time and all of her hair fell out[1].

            Modern Islamic apologists claim that he waited until she reached puberty before consummating the marriage, but all of the relevant sources (Bukhari, Ibn Hisham, Tabari, Ibn al-Athir, Ibn Sa’d, Ibn Hanbal...) specifically state that Aisha was only nine years old when her marriage to Mohammed was consummated. As Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64: Sahih Bukhari (regarded as the most venerated and authentic book of the Sunni Hadith)[2] put it: "Narrated ‘Aisha: that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e. until his death)."

            Further, there are several Hadith that discuss this marriage, and none of them claim that Aisha was pubescent. Besides, reaching puberty at such an early age would itself be miraculous and had been recorded – especially considering the diet and living conditions in Arabia during the 7th century AD, as well as the matter of her illness. In fact, the original source material describes her as being a little girl playing with dolls. That this type of behavior was later codified into parts of Islamic Law is evidenced by the Compilations of Ishaq bin Mansur al-Kasaj, in the chapters concerning marriage and divorce, where it is ruled that a woman "is of age when she reached her ninth year."

            We can see that the qur'an takes child marriage for granted in its directives about divorce. In the fourth ayat (verse) of the Surah At-Talaq, while discussing the waiting period required in order to determine if the woman is pregnant, it says: "If you are in doubt concerning your wives who have ceased menstruating, know that their waiting period shall be three months. The same shall apply to those who have not yet menstruated" (65:4). IOW, Allah is envisioning a scenario in which a pre-pubescent girl is not only married, had sex, and is now being divorced by her husband.

            And none of this has changed in modern times (warning the following gets a bit explicit)

            The late Ayatollah Khomeini of Iran wrote that it is best if a young girl has her first "menstruation at her husband’s house rather than her father’s home. Any father marrying his daughter so young will have a permanent place in heaven." Talk about your "Family Values." In his "Tahrir al-Wasilah" Khomeini proclaims:

            A man can marry a girl younger than nine years of age, even if the girl is still a baby being breastfed. A man, however, is prohibited from having intercourse with a girl younger than nine, other sexual acts such as foreplay, rubbing, kissing and sodomy is allowed. A man having intercourse with a girl younger than nine years of age has not committed a crime, but only an infraction, if the girl is not permanently damaged. If the girl, however, is permanently damaged, the man must provide for her all her life. But this girl will not count as one of the man’s four permanent wives. He is also not allowed to marry the girl’s sister









            1. I've always wondered that since all indications reveal that her father Abu Bakr (who became the first Muslim Caliph following Muhammad's death) was not exactly pleased by this, that he might have given his daughter some drug in order to delay the inevitable for as long as possible.

            2. While some modern Islamic apologists claim that the age of Aisha is not mentioned in the qur'an this is a pointless defense since the textual sources of Islam are made up of both the qur'an and the Sunnah.

            I HATE pointing this out but it's not impossible - I almost started at that age and did start before anyone else in my class.

            That said, a girl that young cannot safely deliver or carry to term. It almost invariably causes injury - and the repercussions of that can be socially ostracizing at the very least (bladders are a terrible thing to waste). Onset is an idiotic way to determine AoC.
            "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

            "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

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            • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
              FYI - that word doesn't mean what you think it does. You AREN'T discussing pedophilia at all.

              Also, a 12 year old is legally able to walk into a Health Department clinic and obtain STD treatment without parental consent.

              In your hypothetical, it's fornication and immoral on that basis. It's also rape and immoral on that basis. And illegal on yet another basis.

              But if Mom and Dad sign off on it, and/or a judge does, the kid can get married. It's still of highly questionable ethics, but neither illegal nor immoral so long as the kid consents.

              The parents and the judge are all insane but that's another issue.
              We all don't live in Alabamastan where you can marry your dog or sibling and have a nice reception at the local 7-11.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                *emphasis mine

                I fully agree. BUT that doesn't make the act inherently immoral - that's what MM is trying to get you to see.
                For an adult to take advantage of a child is immoral, Teal. Whether it is illegal or not.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                  FYI - that word doesn't mean what you think it does. You AREN'T discussing pedophilia at all.
                  Right. We aren't talking about children, we're talking about physically and emotionally mature young women who are fully capable of giving their consent. I'm honestly not sure why Sparko is having such a hard time grasping this, but I suspect there's some subtext that we're not aware of.
                  Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                  But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                  Than a fool in the eyes of God


                  From "Fools Gold" by Petra

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                  • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                    For an adult to take advantage of a child is immoral, Teal. Whether it is illegal or not.
                    You'll get no argument from me on that point. For that matter, taking undue advantage of anybody, child or otherwise, is immoral.
                    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                    Than a fool in the eyes of God


                    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                      Right. We aren't talking about children, we're talking about physically and emotionally mature young women who are fully capable of giving their consent. I'm honestly not sure why Sparko is having such a hard time grasping this, but I suspect there's some subtext that we're not aware of.
                      You calling a 14 year old a physically and emotionally mature young women is pretty sick sounding actually. There is no such thing.

                      You backed yourself into a corner and you are the type to never admit you are wrong. You will defend this idiotic stance to the end, not because you actually believe a 14 year old girl can be mature enough to consent to sex or marriage to a 30 year old, but because you just are too proud to admit you are wrong.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                        We all don't live in Alabamastan where you can marry your dog or sibling and have a nice reception at the local 7-11.
                        Few states have laws that differ significantly on those points, Sparky - it's legal to marry below the AoC in almost all states (I presume there's an exception but I don't honestly know for sure).
                        "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                        "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                        My Personal Blog

                        My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

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                        • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                          For an adult to take advantage of a child is immoral, Teal. Whether it is illegal or not.
                          But the mere fact of dating doesn't make that so - and before you go nuts, I agree in most cases it would be so - but if a parent is supervising then there is an exception.

                          Bad idea still but not immoral.
                          "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                          "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                          My Personal Blog

                          My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                          Quill Sword

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                          • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                            But the mere fact of dating doesn't make that so - and before you go nuts, I agree in most cases it would be so - but if a parent is supervising then there is an exception.

                            Bad idea still but not immoral.
                            Why the hell are you all defending a 14-year-old girl being mature enough to have sex or get married? what the hell is the matter with you all?

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                              No, I'm asking who has been claiming that sexual assault is OKAY - which was what you stated.
                              My original response was in reply to Sparko, who noted that the difference between Bush's revelation of alcoholism and Moore's hypothetical assault charge is that Moore claimed to already have a relationship with Jesus when he committed assault.

                              You do understand that the alleged event occurred 38 YEARS ago, right? The absence of any allegations of similar activity (or even of approaching younger women) subsequent to his marriage is strong evidence against any recidivism - and brings the allegation into significant question.
                              If the accusations turn out to have substance, there is indeed a pattern of sexual aggression. One conclusion might be that he got over it when he was married; another might be that there are more victims who are choosing not to speak, for whatever their reasons. There are at least 3 accusations of assault, as far as I know.
                              "Down in the lowlands, where the water is deep,
                              Hear my cry, hear my shout,
                              Save me, save me"

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                              • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                                Right. We aren't talking about children, we're talking about physically and emotionally mature young women who are fully capable of giving their consent. I'm honestly not sure why Sparko is having such a hard time grasping this, but I suspect there's some subtext that we're not aware of.
                                I'm actually more on his side - at 14 we aren't talking about a woman in any real sense of the term. At 16 they are legally able to give consent but neither physically nor emotionally mature.

                                He's seeing the disparity as inherently unequal - which I agree with - and therefore inherently disadvantaging the younger party - which I only disagree with the inherent part. I grant it's not inherently immoral - but I do not grant that it's a good idea, ethically tenable in most cases or fair to both parties in most cases. Moore (apparently - we're still dealing with allegations) managed the one thing I find mitigating - getting parental consent. Otherwise, I'd have both moral and ethical issues with this - just not inherent ones.
                                "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                                "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                                My Personal Blog

                                My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                                Quill Sword

                                Comment

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