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  • Originally posted by Raphael View Post
    John Key is an agnostic Jew (his mother escaped Germany in WWII), who is on record as saying that he and his family go to Church because he and his wife believe it is the right thing to do.
    Keeping the channel open just in case, perhaps.
    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
      Oh my - that comes dangerously close to describing me

      I do admire many of the teachings attributed to Jesus of Nazareth. Not sure I would call myself an "atheist Christian" though - but it does possibly explain the title that other member was apparently trying to claim.
      When I was an atheist, I made the conscious decision to use the Judeo-Christian ethic for my morality (I so NEVER bought the 'natural law' version). However, I was also never so deluded as to believe that I was still a Christian.
      "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

      "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

      My Personal Blog

      My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

      Quill Sword

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
        When I was an atheist, I made the conscious decision to use the Judeo-Christian ethic for my morality (I so NEVER bought the 'natural law' version). However, I was also never so deluded as to believe that I was still a Christian.
        Nor do I. I was simply commenting that the description was fairly apt. I do not "use the Judeo-Christian ethic" for my morality - but my morality is, in many ways, aligned with it. We do, however, diverge on some significant issues.
        The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

        I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

        Comment


        • Roy Who?
          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
            Roy Who?
            The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

            I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

            Comment


            • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
              Oh my - that comes dangerously close to describing me

              I do admire many of the teachings attributed to Jesus of Nazareth. Not sure I would call myself an "atheist Christian" though - but it does possibly explain the title that other member was apparently trying to claim.
              So you admire the teachings of someone who your worldview can only accept as a lunatic who got himself killed for insisting he was a deity?

              Interesting...
              Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
              But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
              Than a fool in the eyes of God


              From "Fools Gold" by Petra

              Comment


              • Even Richard Dawkins called himself a "secular Christian": https://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/...Christian.html
                "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                  So you admire the teachings of someone who your worldview can only accept as a lunatic who got himself killed for insisting he was a deity?

                  Interesting...
                  No - I admire many of the teachings attributed to a rabbinical preacher who lived 2,000+ years ago. Whether those were actually his teachings, I do not really know. As for the rest of the claims about him, I know those were the claims of the early Christian community writing 25-80 years after his death. Beyond that, I don't know much about what he actually claimed for himself. I doubt he was a lunatic. I suspect he would have been mortified to discover the community that came behind him had deified him. But we'll never know. However, love those who hate you, pray for those who persecute you, turn the other cheek, do not cast the first stone, are all laudable themes.

                  I wish I lived up to them more completely. Alas...I don't.
                  The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                  I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                    Even Richard Dawkins called himself a "secular Christian": https://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/...Christian.html

                    This is the more telling comment:
                    Dawkins, 73, also said that he believes humans are destined to take a certain path in life, and that if they veer from it a “magnetic pull” will bring them back to their fate.
                    "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                    "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                    My Personal Blog

                    My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                    Quill Sword

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                      So you admire the teachings of someone who your worldview can only accept as a lunatic who got himself killed for insisting he was a deity?

                      Interesting...
                      The "Golden Rule", i.e. 'Do to others what you want them to do to you', is what's central to Christianity. God/Man Jesus says so himself. It has been the central ethical principle in many other cultures as well...ranging from ancient Egypt to ancient Greece and China and many others. It embodies the ethic of mutual reciprocity essential to human survival as a social species.
                      “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                        No - I admire many of the teachings attributed to a rabbinical preacher who lived 2,000+ years ago. Whether those were actually his teachings, I do not really know. As for the rest of the claims about him, I know those were the claims of the early Christian community writing 25-80 years after his death. Beyond that, I don't know much about what he actually claimed for himself. I doubt he was a lunatic. I suspect he would have been mortified to discover the community that came behind him had deified him. But we'll never know. However, love those who hate you, pray for those who persecute you, turn the other cheek, do not cast the first stone, are all laudable themes.

                        I wish I lived up to them more completely. Alas...I don't.
                        Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                        The "Golden Rule", i.e. 'Do to others what you want them to do to you', is what's central to Christianity. God/Man Jesus says so himself. It has been the central ethical principle in many other cultures as well...ranging from ancient Egypt to ancient Greece and China and many others. It embodies the ethic of mutual reciprocity essential to human survival as a social species.
                        To suggest that the "Golden Rule" is central to Christianity is rather ignorant. The central message of Christianity is the reconciliation of God and man through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. The "Golden Rule" is simply our expected response to that fact. While many people love to quote the second half of the "Golden Rule", they always seem to forget the first half:
                        Matthew 22:35-40, 'And one of them, a lawyer, asked [Jesus] a question to test him. “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.”'

                        You see, without the "great and first commandment", the second commandment is little more than feel-good pap with no moral force behind it. Without the authority of Jesus' divinity, the "Golden Rule" can be heeded or modified or outright discarded as pragmatism demands, making it more of a "Tin Rule". If we were to create a "Golden Rule for Atheists", it could just as easily read, "Never do to others what you can not get away with," or "Always do what is in your own best interest, even if it is not in the best interest of others."

                        It will always strike me as illogical and irrational to claim to admire Christian ethics while divorcing them from everything that gives them their moral authority leaving you with nothing more than a set of "take it or leave it" guidelines.
                        Last edited by Mountain Man; 05-21-2018, 08:26 AM.
                        Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                        But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                        Than a fool in the eyes of God


                        From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                          To suggest that the "Golden Rule" is central to Christianity is rather ignorant. The central message of Christianity is the reconciliation of God and man through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. The "Golden Rule" is simply our expected response to that fact. While many people love to quote the second half of the "Golden Rule", they always seem to forget the first half:
                          Matthew 22:35-40, 'And one of them, a lawyer, asked [Jesus] a question to test him. “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.”'

                          You see, without the "great and first commandment", the second commandment is little more than feel-good pap with no moral force behind it. Without the authority of Jesus' divinity, the "Golden Rule" can be heeded or modified or outright discarded as pragmatism demands, making it more of a "Tin Rule". If we were to create a "Golden Rule for Atheists", it could just as easily read, "Never do to others what you can not get away with," or "Always do what is in your own best interest, even if it is not in the best interest of others."

                          It will always strike me as illogical and irrational to claim to admire Christian ethics will divorcing them from everything that gives them their moral authority leaving you with nothing more than a set of "take it or leave it" guidelines.
                          EGGzackly, and the very next thing Jesus said after "the Golden Rule" was “Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few."
                          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                            It will always strike me as illogical and irrational to claim to admire Christian ethics [while] divorcing them from everything that gives them their moral authority leaving you with nothing more than a set of "take it or leave it" guidelines.
                            This is well said!

                            Here's what I find so often, and I link it back to the WWJD movement - What Would Jesus Do?
                            Selectively choose the passages you like about Jesus, and build your own version of "Jesus" from that.
                            Using this version of Jesus, pretend to know what He would actually do in any given circumstance, even if it flies in the face of the precedent He set in the Bible by His own actions and other statements.
                            "WWJD" becomes entirely subjective, and often way off base.

                            MUCH better to go with WDJS - What Did Jesus Say, than pretend to know what He would do.
                            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                              To suggest that the "Golden Rule" is central to Christianity is rather ignorant. The central message of Christianity is the reconciliation of God and man through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. The "Golden Rule" is simply our expected response to that fact. While many people love to quote the second half of the "Golden Rule", they always seem to forget the first half:

                              Matthew 22:35-40, 'And one of them, a lawyer, asked [Jesus] a question to test him. “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.”'[... ]
                              And you only need to read a few chapters further i Matthew in order to see a picture that does at least at first glance look a bit different:

                              “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

                              37“Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

                              40“The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

                              41“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

                              44“They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

                              45“He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

                              46“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” Matthew 25, 34 - 36
                              It certainly gives the impression that what you actually do towards your neighbour is what is important. But interpretation allows for rather selective choises of what is important, what context it should be read in and so on and so forth.
                              "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Charles View Post
                                And you only need to read a few chapters further i Matthew in order to see a picture that does at least at first glance look a bit different:
                                He is apparently expanding on what he meant by the second commandment, which in no way negates the first.

                                It certainly gives the impression that what you actually do towards your neighbour is what is important. But interpretation allows for rather selective choises of what is important, what context it should be read in and so on and so forth.
                                I think it's more about the motive (of the heart) than the action - we can all do good things for bad reasons.
                                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                                Comment

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