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  • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    Thanks - but it was fine as it was. When a "solution" is solving a problem that has not been shown to exist, the side-effects of the solution are going to get more attention. In this case, it is exclusion.
    Er, the problem HAS been shown to exist - the question is its extent. It seems to me that the side effects of the solution is that everyone would have a photo ID.
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

    Comment


    • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
      Er, the problem HAS been shown to exist - the question is its extent. It seems to me that the side effects of the solution is that everyone would have a photo ID.
      Point taken. Let me be more clear. When the solution is solving a problem that is statistically irrelevant at the cost of a statistically relevant shift of voting access and voting results, the focus shifts to exclusion. In support of my claim:

      http://time.com/4736959/voter-fraud-...hew-masterson/

      https://www.brennancenter.org/public...ut-voter-fraud

      https://www.brennancenter.org/analys...r-fraud-claims

      Don't get me wrong - I have no problem with VoterID per se. I DO think the registration rolls need some attention. But I also have a problem with how VoterID laws are being used and their net effect. The problem has a solution: implement a nationwide (or statewide) ID program, ensure that everyone has access to an affordable photo ID with strategies to deal with those who do not have the necessary documentation, and AFTER every reasonable effort has been made to put those IDs in the hands of the voters, then make it a requirement for voting. No one is disenfranchised - and the voting "problem" as small as it is, is resolved. As previously noted, it's a win-win.

      Note - VoterID laws alone are not going to deal with the issue of dead people remaining on the rolls, and people being registered in multiple districts due to movement between districts. Voter registration is a local phenomenon. You would need interlinks between the social security databases and the VoterID database to deal with dead registered voters, which is probably the best and most widely implemented database we have for "living" versus "dead." I have no idea what the incidence of people without Social Security numbers is and cannot find stats. I see no way of dealing with multiple registrations unless the ID system is nationalized. Creating interlinks between 50 differetn databases (assuming state-wide voter IDs) is a massive coordination issue.
      Last edited by carpedm9587; 12-14-2017, 09:08 AM.
      The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

      I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

      Comment


      • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
        Er, the problem HAS been shown to exist - the question is its extent. It seems to me that the side effects of the solution is that everyone would have a photo ID.
        To what extent has it been shown to be a problem. I was under the impression, perhaps mistaken, that there isn't good evidence of widespread voter fraud.

        Two-votes Guacamole
        "Down in the lowlands, where the water is deep,
        Hear my cry, hear my shout,
        Save me, save me"

        Comment


        • Originally posted by guacamole View Post
          To what extent has it been shown to be a problem. I was under the impression, perhaps mistaken, that there isn't good evidence of widespread voter fraud.

          Two-votes Guacamole
          Let's say it's two votes, just for grins. You're OK with cheating anybody out of their vote?

          But it's not just two votes.

          Voter Fraud Is Real. This Searchable Database Proves It


          The Heritage Foundation’s election fraud database just got a major upgrade.

          With the addition of powerful new search functions, Heritage is giving Americans a quick and easy way to sort through 1,088 documented instances of fraud, to see how nefarious election activity has affected their own states and communities.

          Anyone who uses the database will quickly see that the left’s claims that election fraud does not exist are as baseless as they are persistent.

          Proving the falsehood of those claims is the raison d’être of the database. Heritage researchers diligently track and monitor cases as they work their way through the courts, rigorously examining each potential entry for definitive proof of fraud.

          That evidence can take many forms: a criminal conviction, a civil penalty, or a judicial finding that fraud occurred, among others.
          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
            Let's say it's two votes, just for grins. You're OK with cheating anybody out of their vote?

            But it's not just two votes.

            Voter Fraud Is Real. This Searchable Database Proves It


            The Heritage Foundation’s election fraud database just got a major upgrade.

            With the addition of powerful new search functions, Heritage is giving Americans a quick and easy way to sort through 1,088 documented instances of fraud, to see how nefarious election activity has affected their own states and communities.

            Anyone who uses the database will quickly see that the left’s claims that election fraud does not exist are as baseless as they are persistent.

            Proving the falsehood of those claims is the raison d’être of the database. Heritage researchers diligently track and monitor cases as they work their way through the courts, rigorously examining each potential entry for definitive proof of fraud.

            That evidence can take many forms: a criminal conviction, a civil penalty, or a judicial finding that fraud occurred, among others.
            OK- nobody is saying there is NO voter fraud. So let's do a little math. After a bit of checking in the database, it seems the database documents cases back to 2001 - which is a 17-year period. It documents 1088 provable cases across all voting levels, local, regional, state, and national. So that's an average of 64 cases per year, or slightly more than one case per state per year.

            During that period, 100+ million registered voters (I'm cutting the number from the 125 million normally cited to err on the side of minimiziing the effect) voted at LEAST 8 times (there are elections in every state virtually every year, but I am cutting it in half to focus on federal cycle, again, minimizing the effect). That translates to over 800 million votes cast. That is a fraud rate of 0.000136%. However, the solution being put forward has been statistically shown to disenfranchise up to 2% of the electorate, with a 1.2% shift in voting outcomes (from Democrat to Republican). 2% 0f 800 million votes cast is 16,000,000 votes lost.

            So do I think it is worth losing over 16,000,000 million votes (and note I was generous with the numbers; if I actually used annual voting and the average turn out rate applied to the number of registered voters, we would be above 30 million votes) to protect against 1088 fraudulent voters? No - I don't. The former is statistically significant, the latter is not. Any solution put forward to solve the latter needs to avoid the former, IMO. Since there ARE strategies for doing that, refusal to implement them strongly suggests the issue is not actually voter fraud: it's a desire to skew the outcome to the right. As I have noted before, I consider that unethical, unpatriotic, and unamerican.
            The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

            I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

            Comment


            • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
              OK- nobody is saying there is NO voter fraud. So let's do a little math. After a bit of checking in the database, it seems the database documents cases back to 2001 - which is a 17-year period. It documents 1088 provable cases across all voting levels, local, regional, state, and national. So that's an average of 64 cases per year, or slightly more than one case per state per year.

              During that period, 100+ million registered voters (I'm cutting the number from the 125 million normally cited to err on the side of minimiziing the effect) voted at LEAST 8 times (there are elections in every state virtually every year, but I am cutting it in half to focus on federal cycle, again, minimizing the effect). That translates to over 800 million votes cast. That is a fraud rate of 0.000136%. However, the solution being put forward has been statistically shown to disenfranchise up to 2% of the electorate, with a 1.2% shift in voting outcomes (from Democrat to Republican). 2% 0f 800 million votes cast is 16,000,000 votes lost.

              So do I think it is worth losing over 16,000,000 million votes (and note I was generous with the numbers; if I actually used annual voting and the average turn out rate applied to the number of registered voters, we would be above 30 million votes) to protect against 1088 fraudulent voters? No - I don't. The former is statistically significant, the latter is not. Any solution put forward to solve the latter needs to avoid the former, IMO. Since there ARE strategies for doing that, refusal to implement them strongly suggests the issue is not actually voter fraud: it's a desire to skew the outcome to the right. As I have noted before, I consider that unethical, unpatriotic, and unamerican.
              Actually I'm pretty sure that they understand all of that , the problem is that they really don't care about the facts, so long as they can win by any means they are all for undermining the process. They're republicans after all, they know they're outnumbered and that they are falling further behind the majority as time goes on.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                OK- nobody is saying there is NO voter fraud. So let's do a little math. After a bit of checking in the database, it seems the database documents cases back to 2001 - which is a 17-year period. It documents 1088 provable cases across all voting levels, local, regional, state, and national. So that's an average of 64 cases per year, or slightly more than one case per state per year.
                Those are the ones that were Caught Carpedm anything else you have to say below should be read with that in mind.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                  Actually I'm pretty sure that they understand all of that , the problem is that they really don't care about the facts, so long as they can win by any means they are all for undermining the process. They're republicans after all, they know they're outnumbered and that they are falling further behind the majority as time goes on.
                  Argument by popularity. You’re sure good at this logic stuff Jimmy.
                  "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                  GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                    OK- nobody is saying there is NO voter fraud. So let's do a little math.
                    Those are largely the cases where we actually know something happened. There is reason to believe more is going on, like when more people vote democratic in a county than there are registered voters.

                    But feel free to "do the math" on what little info you have.

                    (It's like estimating the number of red light runners based on the number of citations written by police. )
                    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                      Argument by popularity. You’re sure good at this logic stuff Jimmy.
                      Argument by popularity? Better brush up on your own logic there Lilpix.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                        Let's say it's two votes, just for grins. You're OK with cheating anybody out of their vote?
                        If it's two votes, just for grins, I'm not sure it's worth a tax payer response.

                        I poked around on the website and found their definition list. The website lists all crimes associated with these definitions:

                        Types of Voter Fraud
                        Altering the Vote Count
                        Changing the actual vote count either in a precinct or at the central location where votes are counted.


                        This wouldn't be solved by requiring voter ID. This is a problem with election judges or other criminal tampering.



                        Ballot Petition Fraud
                        Forging the signatures of registered voters on the ballot petitions that must be filed with election officials in some states for a candidate or issue to be listed on the official ballot.


                        This wouldn't be solved by requiring voter ID. This is a problem registering candidates.


                        Buying Votes
                        Paying voters to cast either an in-person or absentee ballot for a particular candidate.


                        This isn't a problem that would be solved by requiring voter ID.


                        Duplicate Voting
                        Registering in multiple locations and voting in the same election in more than one jurisdiction or state.v


                        This isn't a problem that would be solved by requiring a voter ID until we have a real time way to see who has and has not voted. Presumably a person could obtain a fraudulent or old ID if they want to vote in more than one jurisdiction or state.


                        False Registrations
                        Voting under fraudulent voter registrations that either use a phony name and a real or fake address or claim residence in a particular jurisdiction where the registered voter does not actually live and is not entitled to vote.


                        This could be solved through requiring a voter ID. Again, presuming a person doesn't want to obtain a fake ID or have an old one.


                        Fraudulent Use of Absentee Ballots
                        Requesting absentee ballots and voting without the knowledge of the actual voter; or obtaining the absentee ballot from a voter and either filling it in directly and forging the voter’s signature or illegally telling the voter who to vote for.


                        This would not be solved by voter ID.


                        Illegal "Assistance" at the Polls
                        Forcing or intimidating voters—particularly the elderly, disabled, illiterate, and those for whom English is a second language—to vote for particular candidates while supposedly providing them with “assistance.”


                        This would not be solved by voter ID.


                        Impersonation Fraud at the Polls
                        Voting in the name of other legitimate voters and voters who have died, moved away, or lost their right to vote because they are felons, but remain registered.


                        This might be solved. Unless we have real time blocking of felons, however, a felon with an ID could vote.


                        Ineligible Voting
                        Illegal registration and voting by individuals who are not U.S. citizens, are convicted felons, or are otherwise not eligible to vote.


                        This might be checked by voter ID.

                        In 2016, using their database, there were 5 convictions for impersonation fraud; 2 convictions for false registration; there were 4 for ineligible voting. However, when picking through those cases I found this:

                        Nebi Ademi, 63, a native of Macedonia who resides in Chippewa Falls, successfully cast a ballot in the April 2016 primary election, despite his status as a non-citizen. Ademi filled out a same-day registration, leaving blank the question about his citizenship. District Attorney Steve Gibbs noted that poll workers "should have caught this" and recommended, based on his determination that Ademi had not deliberately broken the law, that the charges against him be changed from election fraud to disorderly conduct. Ademi pleaded no contest. He was ordered to pay $443 in court costs.


                        So it's listed as a conviction by the foundation when it isn't actually a conviction and that the problem could have stopped by a competent election judge.

                        In any case, more than half of the listed offenses are not solvable through voter ID, and at least one instance of a legit problem that could be solved by voter ID is wrong.

                        I can't trust that the general stats posted by the website are trust worthy.

                        Originally posted by Mark Twain
                        "Figures often beguile me, particularly when I have the arranging of them myself; in which case the remark attributed to Disraeli would often apply with justice and force: 'There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics."
                        fwiw,
                        three votes guacamole
                        "Down in the lowlands, where the water is deep,
                        Hear my cry, hear my shout,
                        Save me, save me"

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                          Argument by popularity? Better brush up on your own logic there Lilpix.
                          You’re the one arguing that the majority agreeing means anything to the truthfulness of a position.
                          "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                          GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                            You’re the one arguing that the majority agreeing means anything to the truthfulness of a position.
                            That's why you need brush up on your logic Lilpix, that wasn't my argument at all. Perhaps you can point out where I said that the majority means 'you have to agree.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by guacamole View Post
                              If it's two votes, just for grins, I'm not sure it's worth a tax payer response.

                              I poked around on the website and found their definition list. The website lists all crimes associated with these definitions:

                              Types of Voter Fraud
                              Altering the Vote Count
                              Changing the actual vote count either in a precinct or at the central location where votes are counted.


                              This wouldn't be solved by requiring voter ID. This is a problem with election judges or other criminal tampering.



                              Ballot Petition Fraud
                              Forging the signatures of registered voters on the ballot petitions that must be filed with election officials in some states for a candidate or issue to be listed on the official ballot.


                              This wouldn't be solved by requiring voter ID. This is a problem registering candidates.


                              Buying Votes
                              Paying voters to cast either an in-person or absentee ballot for a particular candidate.


                              This isn't a problem that would be solved by requiring voter ID.


                              Duplicate Voting
                              Registering in multiple locations and voting in the same election in more than one jurisdiction or state.v


                              This isn't a problem that would be solved by requiring a voter ID until we have a real time way to see who has and has not voted. Presumably a person could obtain a fraudulent or old ID if they want to vote in more than one jurisdiction or state.


                              False Registrations
                              Voting under fraudulent voter registrations that either use a phony name and a real or fake address or claim residence in a particular jurisdiction where the registered voter does not actually live and is not entitled to vote.


                              This could be solved through requiring a voter ID. Again, presuming a person doesn't want to obtain a fake ID or have an old one.


                              Fraudulent Use of Absentee Ballots
                              Requesting absentee ballots and voting without the knowledge of the actual voter; or obtaining the absentee ballot from a voter and either filling it in directly and forging the voter’s signature or illegally telling the voter who to vote for.


                              This would not be solved by voter ID.


                              Illegal "Assistance" at the Polls
                              Forcing or intimidating voters—particularly the elderly, disabled, illiterate, and those for whom English is a second language—to vote for particular candidates while supposedly providing them with “assistance.”


                              This would not be solved by voter ID.


                              Impersonation Fraud at the Polls
                              Voting in the name of other legitimate voters and voters who have died, moved away, or lost their right to vote because they are felons, but remain registered.


                              This might be solved. Unless we have real time blocking of felons, however, a felon with an ID could vote.


                              Ineligible Voting
                              Illegal registration and voting by individuals who are not U.S. citizens, are convicted felons, or are otherwise not eligible to vote.


                              This might be checked by voter ID.

                              In 2016, using their database, there were 5 convictions for impersonation fraud; 2 convictions for false registration; there were 4 for ineligible voting. However, when picking through those cases I found this:

                              Nebi Ademi, 63, a native of Macedonia who resides in Chippewa Falls, successfully cast a ballot in the April 2016 primary election, despite his status as a non-citizen. Ademi filled out a same-day registration, leaving blank the question about his citizenship. District Attorney Steve Gibbs noted that poll workers "should have caught this" and recommended, based on his determination that Ademi had not deliberately broken the law, that the charges against him be changed from election fraud to disorderly conduct. Ademi pleaded no contest. He was ordered to pay $443 in court costs.


                              So it's listed as a conviction by the foundation when it isn't actually a conviction and that the problem could have stopped by a competent election judge.

                              In any case, more than half of the listed offenses are not solvable through voter ID, and at least one instance of a legit problem that could be solved by voter ID is wrong.

                              I can't trust that the general stats posted by the website are trust worthy.



                              fwiw,
                              three votes guacamole


                              A MUCH better response than mine...
                              The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                              I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                                That's why you need brush up on your logic Lilpix, that wasn't my argument at all. Perhaps you can point out where I said that the majority means 'you have to agree.
                                You’re the one arguing that Republicans are falling behind the majority as though that had anything to do with the truthfulness of their ideas. Besides, many studies are showing up and coming generation z are quite a bit more consertives than their more liberal millennial and gen x parents. You might be in for a rude awaking as the up and coming generation starts to vote in force.
                                "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                                GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                                Comment

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