Roy Moore accused of sexual contact with 14-year old

[Mountain Man]

Allred said, "I don’t believe at the time she had a clue whether he was an assistant D.A. or a D.A."

And coincidentally, it seems whoever signed the yearbook wasn't aware of the distinction, either, since Moore was, in fact, a deputy district attorney and would have written "D.D.A." after his signature. Then there's this fact mentioned in Moore's letter to Sean Hannity:

My signature on the order of dismissal in the divorce case was annotated with the letters “D.A.,” representing the initials of my court assistant. Curiously the supposed yearbook inscription is also followed by the same initials — “D.A.” But at that time I was Deputy District Attorney, not district attorney. Those initials as well as the date under the signature block and the printed name of the restaurant are written in a style inconsistent with the rest of the yearbook inscription.

So, yeah, the yearbook signature story is falling apart faster than a grass hut in a hurricane.

[Sparko]

"...we are talking society here not exceptions." I'm not sure what that means. Are you saying that it's immoral because society says it's immoral? That's a rather dangerous argument for a Christian to be making. And if you allow for exceptions then you concede my point that it's not inherently immoral.

But to answer your question, there would be nothing inherently immoral about an older man marrying an emotionally mature 14-year old, provided he was not violating any laws -- and I suppose social customs could be regarded as laws, but in that case, the moral problem is breaking the law and not marrying a 14-year old. As I mentioned earlier, Mary, the mother of Jesus, wasn't much older when she was given the greatest honor in human history and gave birth to our Savior, and Joseph her husband could have been anywhere from Mary's age to as much as 10-years older, based simply on Jewish tradition of the time. Obviously people mature at different rates, so I wouldn't say that every 14-year old would necessarily be emotionally mature enough to handle a responsibility like marriage, or giving birth to the Son of God, but there's nothing inherently immoral about a young woman (not girl) dating or marrying someone older than herself. Naturally there is an age where even someone emotionally mature is nothing more than an emotionally mature child, but that's before puberty.

There's obviously a social stigma against young women and older men today, and perhaps for good reason, but we shouldn't mistake social stigmas for moral ones.

wow MM. just wow.

We don't KNOW how old Mary was. Or Joseph. But I am pretty sure she wasn't 14. Now Mohammad, we do know he had a 14 year old bride. It is disgusting.

I think you are so invested in defending Moore at any cost that you are now rationalizing pedophilia as biblical. THAT my friend is a dangerous argument to be making.

You are the JimL conservative equivalent in this debate. You are going to extreme steps to defend your guy just like he does to defend Hillary and crew.

You need to step back and view this objectively.

[Cerebrum123]

wow MM. just wow.

We don't KNOW how old Mary was. Or Joseph. But I am pretty sure she wasn't 14. Now Mohammad, we do know he had a 9 year old bride. It is disgusting.

I think you are so invested in defending Moore at any cost that you are now rationalizing pedophilia as biblical. THAT my friend is a dangerous argument to be making.

You are the JimL conservative equivalent in this debate. You are going to extreme steps to defend your guy just like he does to defend Hillary and crew.

You need to step back and view this objectively.

fify.

He was 50 when they were married, and the arrangement was done when she was 6. This was using a lunar calendar, so they both would have been younger than our solar calendar by a bit.

[Sparko]

fify.

He was 50 when they were married, and the arrangement was done when she was 6. This was using a lunar calendar, so they both would have been younger than our solar calendar by a bit.

For the sarcastically impaired the following is said in jest

Oh sorry. But I bet she was a very emotionally MATURE 9 year old so it was OK.

[Mountain Man]

wow MM. just wow.

We don't KNOW how old Mary was. Or Joseph. But I am pretty sure she wasn't 14. Now Mohammad, we do know he had a 14 year old bride. It is disgusting.

I think you are so invested in defending Moore at any cost that you are now rationalizing pedophilia as biblical. THAT my friend is a dangerous argument to be making.

You are the JimL conservative equivalent in this debate. You are going to extreme steps to defend your guy just like he does to defend Hillary and crew.

You need to step back and view this objectively.

I am viewing this with extreme objectivity, which is why I think you've been so caught off-guard, because it's clashing with your emotional response.

We can make a pretty reasonable and informed guess about the ages of Mary and Joseph based on contemporary Jewish custom and the Talmud. You're right, we don't know for sure, but it's entirely possible that Mary was around 14, although she could have been slightly older. The fact that she was pledged to be married but not yet married is pretty good evidence that she was still quite young (if judged by modern standards). You have to remember that according to ancient Jewish customs and laws, females over the age of 12 were considered to be women, so to bolster your objections with trigger words like "pedophilia" is unwarranted. As for Muhammad, I've read that his "bride" was considerably younger, between 6- and 9-years of age which would definitely qualify as pedophilia.

But the question was about whether or not it's inherently immoral and not whether or not it makes you feel "icky", and while I concede that there may be factors that could make it immoral, I don't see any reason to think that an older man dating or marrying a younger woman is inherently immoral.

[Mountain Man]

You REALLY believe Al Franken sincerely apologized? He got caught with his pants down, so to speak, and has been a super hypocrite on this up to this point. His apology seems more calculated than sincere.

It was calculated to fool liberal idiots like Tass, and when it comes to fooling liberal idiots, Franken knows his business.

[Cow Poke]

It was calculated to fool liberal idiots like Tass, and when it comes to fooling liberal idiots, Franken knows his business.

Here's the deal - liberals feign outrage because Moore was a "values" guy, and it's hypocrisy that the did what he did.

They ignore the fact that Al Franken is a major big-time phony, preaching against abuse of women, while he's an HR nightmare. He's a FRAUD.

So, yes, guys like Tassy are showing what clueless hypocrites they are, as well.

[rogue06]

fify.

He was 50 when they were married, and the arrangement was done when she was 6. This was using a lunar calendar, so they both would have been younger than our solar calendar by a bit.

Muhammad had a six-year-old wife, Aisha, who he consummated his marriage with when she was the ripe age of nine.

Please note that this is not what his enemies said about him – it's what his family and friends said! Apparently he had been fantasizing about her since she was four or five and the consummation would almost certainly have been earlier but she became ill for some time and all of her hair fell out^[1].

Modern Islamic apologists claim that he waited until she reached puberty before consummating the marriage, but all of the relevant sources (Bukhari, Ibn Hisham, Tabari, Ibn al-Athir, Ibn Sa’d, Ibn Hanbal...) specifically state that Aisha was only nine years old when her marriage to Mohammed was consummated. As Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64: Sahih Bukhari (regarded as the most venerated and authentic book of the Sunni Hadith)^[2] put it: "Narrated ‘Aisha: that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e. until his death)."

Further, there are several Hadith that discuss this marriage, and none of them claim that Aisha was pubescent. Besides, reaching puberty at such an early age would itself be miraculous and had been recorded – especially considering the diet and living conditions in Arabia during the 7th century AD, as well as the matter of her illness. In fact, the original source material describes her as being a little girl playing with dolls. That this type of behavior was later codified into parts of Islamic Law is evidenced by the Compilations of Ishaq bin Mansur al-Kasaj, in the chapters concerning marriage and divorce, where it is ruled that a woman "is of age when she reached her ninth year."

We can see that the qur'an takes child marriage for granted in its directives about divorce. In the fourth ayat (verse) of the Surah At-Talaq, while discussing the waiting period required in order to determine if the woman is pregnant, it says: "If you are in doubt concerning your wives who have ceased menstruating, know that their waiting period shall be three months. The same shall apply to those who have not yet menstruated" (65:4). IOW, Allah is envisioning a scenario in which a pre-pubescent girl is not only married, had sex, and is now being divorced by her husband.

And none of this has changed in modern times (warning the following gets a bit explicit)

The late Ayatollah Khomeini of Iran wrote that it is best if a young girl has her first "menstruation at her husband’s house rather than her father’s home. Any father marrying his daughter so young will have a permanent place in heaven." Talk about your "Family Values." In his "Tahrir al-Wasilah" Khomeini proclaims:

A man can marry a girl younger than nine years of age, even if the girl is still a baby being breastfed. A man, however, is prohibited from having intercourse with a girl younger than nine, other sexual acts such as foreplay, rubbing, kissing and sodomy is allowed. A man having intercourse with a girl younger than nine years of age has not committed a crime, but only an infraction, if the girl is not permanently damaged. If the girl, however, is permanently damaged, the man must provide for her all her life. But this girl will not count as one of the man’s four permanent wives. He is also not allowed to marry the girl’s sister

1. I've always wondered that since all indications reveal that her father Abu Bakr (who became the first Muslim Caliph following Muhammad's death) was not exactly pleased by this, that he might have given his daughter some drug in order to delay the inevitable for as long as possible.

2. While some modern Islamic apologists claim that the age of Aisha is not mentioned in the qur'an this is a pointless defense since the textual sources of Islam are made up of both the qur'an and the Sunnah.

[rogue06]

Here's the deal - liberals feign outrage because Moore was a "values" guy, and it's hypocrisy that the did what he did.

They ignore the fact that Al Franken is a major big-time phony, preaching against abuse of women, while he's an HR nightmare. He's a FRAUD.

So, yes, guys like Tassy are showing what clueless hypocrites they are, as well.

The left appears to have high hopes for Franken and see him as a rising star in the party so they are going to defend him

[guacamole]

*emphasis mine

Um, who the heck is claiming THAT? Even Obsidian with the 'dating teens is okay' thing didn't go anywhere near saying that sexual violence is okay.

It wouldn't have been okay (if it occurred) - but if we were talking about a guy that did something like that 40 years ago and repented genuinely with no further occurrences, I don't see what objection you have to his holding office.

One of the accusations is assault. I'm not sure if it's true or not. If it's true, then I believe that, given the likely recidivism of sexually-violent criminals, given the fact that he hasn't come clean on his sins and dealt with them through the church, then it's inappropriate for him to to be holding a leadership position, especially not with the label "Christian" on his sleeve. I mean, we don't know if he's repented or not--he still denying that any of the accusations are true, even the statement from former colleagues about his allegedly known proclivity to chase teenagers.

[Cow Poke]

One of the accusations is assault.

Which one? Details?

[Cow Poke]

The left appears to have high hopes for Franken and see him as a rising star in the party so they are going to defend him

Some of them seem to be caving though, realizing that, if they are going to be credibly believed (laughing hard) as the party of respect for women, they have to toss him overboard.

[Sparko]

Muhammad had a six-year-old wife, Aisha, who he consummated his marriage with when she was the ripe age of nine.

Please note that this is not what his enemies said about him – it's what his family and friends said! Apparently he had been fantasizing about her since she was four or five and the consummation would almost certainly have been earlier but she became ill for some time and all of her hair fell out^[1].

Modern Islamic apologists claim that he waited until she reached puberty before consummating the marriage, but all of the relevant sources (Bukhari, Ibn Hisham, Tabari, Ibn al-Athir, Ibn Sa’d, Ibn Hanbal...) specifically state that Aisha was only nine years old when her marriage to Mohammed was consummated. As Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64: Sahih Bukhari (regarded as the most venerated and authentic book of the Sunni Hadith)^[2] put it: "Narrated ‘Aisha: that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e. until his death)."

Further, there are several Hadith that discuss this marriage, and none of them claim that Aisha was pubescent. Besides, reaching puberty at such an early age would itself be miraculous and had been recorded – especially considering the diet and living conditions in Arabia during the 7th century AD, as well as the matter of her illness. In fact, the original source material describes her as being a little girl playing with dolls. That this type of behavior was later codified into parts of Islamic Law is evidenced by the Compilations of Ishaq bin Mansur al-Kasaj, in the chapters concerning marriage and divorce, where it is ruled that a woman "is of age when she reached her ninth year."

We can see that the qur'an takes child marriage for granted in its directives about divorce. In the fourth ayat (verse) of the Surah At-Talaq, while discussing the waiting period required in order to determine if the woman is pregnant, it says: "If you are in doubt concerning your wives who have ceased menstruating, know that their waiting period shall be three months. The same shall apply to those who have not yet menstruated" (65:4). IOW, Allah is envisioning a scenario in which a pre-pubescent girl is not only married, had sex, and is now being divorced by her husband.

And none of this has changed in modern times (warning the following gets a bit explicit)

The late Ayatollah Khomeini of Iran wrote that it is best if a young girl has her first "menstruation at her husband’s house rather than her father’s home. Any father marrying his daughter so young will have a permanent place in heaven." Talk about your "Family Values." In his "Tahrir al-Wasilah" Khomeini proclaims:

A man can marry a girl younger than nine years of age, even if the girl is still a baby being breastfed. A man, however, is prohibited from having intercourse with a girl younger than nine, other sexual acts such as foreplay, rubbing, kissing and sodomy is allowed. A man having intercourse with a girl younger than nine years of age has not committed a crime, but only an infraction, if the girl is not permanently damaged. If the girl, however, is permanently damaged, the man must provide for her all her life. But this girl will not count as one of the man’s four permanent wives. He is also not allowed to marry the girl’s sister

1. I've always wondered that since all indications reveal that her father Abu Bakr (who became the first Muslim Caliph following Muhammad's death) was not exactly pleased by this, that he might have given his daughter some drug in order to delay the inevitable for as long as possible.

2. While some modern Islamic apologists claim that the age of Aisha is not mentioned in the qur'an this is a pointless defense since the textual sources of Islam are made up of both the qur'an and the Sunnah.

So what? If it is OK for an older man to marry a 12-year-old in the bible and that is not immoral according to Mountain Man, then it must not be immoral or wrong for a muslim to marry and have sex with a 9-year-old since that is what their religion and society says, right?

[Sparko]

Some of them seem to be caving though, realizing that, if they are going to be credibly believed (laughing hard) as the party of respect for women, they have to toss him overboard.

If they don't want to be hypocrites they have to make Franken step down. They are clamoring that Moore should be disqualified from running and if elected should be forced right back out. They can't do that and let Franken remain.

The end result might be a wash if a Democrat wins the Alabama seat and Franken resigns and a Republican takes his.

[Cow Poke]

If they don't want to be hypocrites they have to make Franken step down. They are clamoring that Moore should be disqualified from running and if elected should be forced right back out. They can't do that and let Franken remain.

The end result might be a wash if a Democrat wins the Alabama seat and Franken resigns and a Republican takes his.

But the Dems are in a real quandary here - if they make an exception for Franken because he "apologized", that standard needs to apply across the board. (Noting, of course, that Moore hasn't really apologized for anything)