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Originally posted by JimL View PostJesus and YAHWAY are the same god, the same god to both christians and jews so violence and peace could obviously be used as the situation warrants.Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View PostAnd do you have evidence that the crusaders were totally aware of the geopolitical powers at play among different Muslim groups or did they see them as pretty much all the same.I see you keep avoiding the issue at hand as always, who was the one invading Christian lands, destroying Christian religious sites, and killing Christians first or are we supposed to ignore 300 years of Islamic aggression that took place before hand?And again, do you have any evidence that the crusaders were aware of the geopolitical situation.And you are aware of the destruction of the Church of the Holy Sepulchre that took place in 1009 and was cited as a reason for the first crusade and the taking of Jerusalem.
I'm aware of the destruction, that it occurred nearly a century earlier, that it had been at least partially rebuilt and that the people who destroyed it were not the people who were threatening Byzantium.How funny, attack’s me for failing to understand history while not being aware of one of the cited reasons for the first crusade to begin with.You can argue that they were a separate group all you want, but I doubt they would have been aware of this and had already had a reason to invade and take Jerusalem anyway.
The only difference between my view and your view is that I think the crusaders could distinguish the various Muslim nations, while you think they were as oblivious as you are.
If some-one was attacking and killing your people and those of another country, and invading your land and cities and those of another country, and that other country had just regained control of one of it's invaded cities... what would your response be?Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.
MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.
seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...
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Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View PostRead it quite well, now tell us... what religious founder spread their religion by the sword and what one spread through peaceful means, only with violence hundreds of years later?Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.
MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.
seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...
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Originally posted by Roy View PostHighlighting added for the literacy impaired: "So Muslims are capable of being peaceful despite the warlike nature of their religion, yet Xtians are incapable of being peaceful even though their religion commands it?"
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostFor a Christian to go out conquering in Jesus' name means that he is going directly against the teachings of Christ (Matthew 5:9; Luke 6:35; John 14:27; 16:33; Acts 10:36... to name a few)."As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostI would argue that people who don't follow the doctrines of their claimed religion are not actually members of that religion. They are deluded. Whether muslim or Christian. What would you think of an Atheist who said he believed in God and killed in the name of that God?"I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Originally posted by JimLamebrain View PostJesus and YAHWAY are the same god, the same god to both christians and jews so violence and peace could obviously be used as the situation warrants.
Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostYou really don't get the fact that God's commands to the nation of Israel were very limited in scope and included a number of checks to prevent the Israelites from acquiring a taste for war, such as limiting the spoils they were allowed to take - in some cases, it was none - and they were never given open-ended permission to declare war whenever they felt like it. The Bible records several instances when Israel tried to go to war without God commanding it and suffering brutal defeat. Basically, God used Israel as his instrument of judgment against select nation groups that defied him. But these commands were ONLY for Israel and ONLY in those specific circumstances. These commands did not apply outside of those circumstances, to later generations of Jews, and certainly not to Christians born thousands of years later under the New Covenant.
In contrast, the Koran teaches that all Muslims are always at war with all non-Muslims and gives open-ended commands to subjugate and murder "infidels" whenever and wherever they're found.
There's simply no parallel here.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostI would argue that people who don't follow the doctrines of their claimed religion are not actually members of that religion. They are deluded. Whether muslim or Christian. What would you think of an Atheist who said he believed in God and killed in the name of that God?Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.
MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.
seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...
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Originally posted by KingsGambit View PostI'd be careful pressing that too far. Otherwise we might have to conclude that Nabeel Qureshi was never really a Muslim because he was raised in a sect that interpreted the Quran less literally, and that would neuter his testimony.
But I think it is slightly different if your religion teaches violence and you refuse to go along with it. That makes the religion evil but not you. Which could be a reason why muslims leave Islam. They don't want to be part of what the Koran actually teaches. They try to sweep it under the rug and ignore the parts they don't like but I bet it wears on their conscience.
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Originally posted by Roy View PostBut for both Islam and Xtianity there is disagreement regarding what the doctrines are.
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Originally posted by Roy View PostYou see them pretty much all the same. They, however, seem to have allied with some groups and not with others.I'm not avoiding that at all - you are. The Seljuks were the ones invading Christian lands.If they weren't, which I doubt, that would be their responsibility and no excuse for massacre.Cited as a reason for the first crusade by whom? Reference please.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dest...Sepulchre_1009
Or if you don’t like Wikipedia there’s:
http://www.thelatinlibrary.com/imper...slamchron.html
I'm aware of the destruction, that it occurred nearly a century earlier, that it had been at least partially rebuilt and that the people who destroyed it were not the people who were threatening Byzantium. As usual you've gone straight from asking a question to criticising the answer without bothering to wait for the answer to be given.So they invaded the holy land because it was considered holy.
The only difference between my view and your view is that I think the crusaders could distinguish the various Muslim nations, while you think they were as oblivious as you are.
1009: Caliph Al-Hakim bi-Amr Allah, founder of the Druze sect and sixth Fatimid Caliph in Egypt, orders the Holy Sepulcher and all Christian buildings in Jerusalem be destroyed. In Europe a rumor develops that a "Prince of Babylon" had ordered the destruction of the Holy Sepulcher at the instigation of the Jews. Attacks on Jewish communities in cities like Rouen, Orelans, and Mainz ensue and this rumor helps lay the basis for massacres of Jewish communities by Crusaders marching to the Holy Land.
http://www.thelatinlibrary.com/imper...slamchron.html
It appears they were not aware of the geopolitical situation and there was a good deal of ignorance on the part of the Crusaders, but acting as though they didn’t believe they had good reasons for what they did and that some of these reasons were pretty good is the height of historical ignorance.
"Both sides"? Not only have you dodged the question, you've also failed to count to three.
Sorry, but this isn’t an either/or view that you want it to be. Attacking religious pilgrims, destroying important cultural sites, and attacking your neighbors is a pretty good reason for way much like fighting an invader is too. In war, one side is almost never totally innocent and usually blame can exist in both sides."The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy
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Originally posted by Roy View PostHighlighting added for the literacy impaired: "So Muslims are capable of being peaceful despite the warlike nature of their religion, yet Xtians are incapable of being peaceful even though their religion commands it?""The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy
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Originally posted by Sparko View Post
But I think it is slightly different if your religion teaches violence and you refuse to go along with it. That makes the religion evil but not you. Which could be a reason why muslims leave Islam. They don't want to be part of what the Koran actually teaches. They try to sweep it under the rug and ignore the parts they don't like but I bet it wears on their conscience."I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Originally posted by KingsGambit View PostThat's a good distinction. I see a parallel with some people today who claim to be Christians and recognize that the Bible condemns homosexuality but say they think the Bible is simply wrong.
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