Originally posted by Leonhard
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostOK- nobody is saying there is NO voter fraud. So let's do a little math. After a bit of checking in the database, it seems the database documents cases back to 2001 - which is a 17-year period. It documents 1088 provable cases across all voting levels, local, regional, state, and national. So that's an average of 64 cases per year, or slightly more than one case per state per year.
During that period, 100+ million registered voters (I'm cutting the number from the 125 million normally cited to err on the side of minimiziing the effect) voted at LEAST 8 times (there are elections in every state virtually every year, but I am cutting it in half to focus on federal cycle, again, minimizing the effect). That translates to over 800 million votes cast. That is a fraud rate of 0.000136%. However, the solution being put forward has been statistically shown to disenfranchise up to 2% of the electorate, with a 1.2% shift in voting outcomes (from Democrat to Republican). 2% 0f 800 million votes cast is 16,000,000 votes lost.
So do I think it is worth losing over 16,000,000 million votes (and note I was generous with the numbers; if I actually used annual voting and the average turn out rate applied to the number of registered voters, we would be above 30 million votes) to protect against 1088 fraudulent voters? No - I don't. The former is statistically significant, the latter is not. Any solution put forward to solve the latter needs to avoid the former, IMO. Since there ARE strategies for doing that, refusal to implement them strongly suggests the issue is not actually voter fraud: it's a desire to skew the outcome to the right. As I have noted before, I consider that unethical, unpatriotic, and unamerican."He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
"Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostThat wasn't the cost of the card, it was the cost of replacing the birth certificate and other documents needed to prove citizenship.
Here is a pdf that has some statistics. Most states normal price is under $25. And most have some short of hardship fee reduction. I think each state should have such a fee reduction (or make it free) for anyone who is unemployed or on welfare or retired.
So I agree with you that we should be working to make sure everyone has an ID rather than arguing that people should be able to vote with no ID. That is the way to solve the problem, you get voter checks to make sure only eligible people are voting and everyone has a photo ID to use for all of the things they are needed for in today's society.
http://sharedprosperityphila.org/doc...es-5.15.15.pdf (from 2015 so it might not be accurate any longer)
You can vote with a voter ID - I voted provisionally because I had moved and wasn't on the rolls yet - not because the Voter ID was insufficient.
So in Alabama, it's free."He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
"Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman
My Personal Blog
My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)
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Originally posted by Teallaura View PostIn Alabama, my voter ID was free - the non-driver id costs $38.
You can vote with a voter ID - I voted provisionally because I had moved and wasn't on the rolls yet - not because the Voter ID was insufficient.
So in Alabama, it's free.
"but that's just an example, not an argument" [/carpe]
As much as you have gone through the last couple of years, if you can get ID to vote, ANYONE who wants to can.
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Originally posted by Leonhard View PostFor that reason above all, there shouldn't be voter ID laws without also making absolutely sure all Americans have voter IDs. It must be ensured. Even if it requires a guy driving out to people with it. Everyone has it, or it can't be a requirement.
If all people have ID cards. Then there's no problem. Since this is not the reality. Then it is a problem.
So, everyone who can legally vote can obtain the necessary ID. Where's the problem?"He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
"Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman
My Personal Blog
My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)
Quill Sword
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Originally posted by Sparko View Post[Carpe]
"but that's just an example, not an argument" [/carpe]
As much as you have gone through the last couple of years, if you can get ID to vote, ANYONE who wants to can."He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
"Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman
My Personal Blog
My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)
Quill Sword
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostAnd if some hick in outer Alabamastan can get an ID to vote, then so can someone in a less primitive backwater state.
"He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
"Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman
My Personal Blog
My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)
Quill Sword
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Originally posted by Sparko View Post[Carpe]
"but that's just an example, not an argument" [/carpe]
As much as you have gone through the last couple of years, if you can get ID to vote, ANYONE who wants to can.
And an example ISN'T an argument - it's just an example. At least THAT's a true, rational statement. It's far more specific than the much loved "you're moving the goalposts" the denizens of this site seem to love so much...The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostAlso don't most states require a photo ID to even get any kind of social assistance? Like food stamps?The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostI have no idea - but that STILL is an example and does not refute the study I linked to. Have you even read it?
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Also I wanted to say:
If there are some people who cannot meet the criteria to get a photo ID or to vote, I am OK with that. There will always be people who do not meet the criteria to accomplish something, even if it is a constitutional right.
Heck only about half of the people who CAN vote actually bother to in the first place. It is not like we need the votes of those who are unable to vote if we can't even get those who are able to actually vote. Work on that first.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostI didn't see any study link. sorry. did you read the pdf I linked to?The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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