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  • Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
    For that reason above all, there shouldn't be voter ID laws without also making absolutely sure all Americans have voter IDs. It must be ensured. Even if it requires a guy driving out to people with it. Everyone has it, or it can't be a requirement.

    If all people have ID cards. Then there's no problem. Since this is not the reality. Then it is a problem.
    You have to be able to show you ARE an American Citizen though.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
      OK- nobody is saying there is NO voter fraud. So let's do a little math. After a bit of checking in the database, it seems the database documents cases back to 2001 - which is a 17-year period. It documents 1088 provable cases across all voting levels, local, regional, state, and national. So that's an average of 64 cases per year, or slightly more than one case per state per year.

      During that period, 100+ million registered voters (I'm cutting the number from the 125 million normally cited to err on the side of minimiziing the effect) voted at LEAST 8 times (there are elections in every state virtually every year, but I am cutting it in half to focus on federal cycle, again, minimizing the effect). That translates to over 800 million votes cast. That is a fraud rate of 0.000136%. However, the solution being put forward has been statistically shown to disenfranchise up to 2% of the electorate, with a 1.2% shift in voting outcomes (from Democrat to Republican). 2% 0f 800 million votes cast is 16,000,000 votes lost.

      So do I think it is worth losing over 16,000,000 million votes (and note I was generous with the numbers; if I actually used annual voting and the average turn out rate applied to the number of registered voters, we would be above 30 million votes) to protect against 1088 fraudulent voters? No - I don't. The former is statistically significant, the latter is not. Any solution put forward to solve the latter needs to avoid the former, IMO. Since there ARE strategies for doing that, refusal to implement them strongly suggests the issue is not actually voter fraud: it's a desire to skew the outcome to the right. As I have noted before, I consider that unethical, unpatriotic, and unamerican.
      Um, how do you allow for the cases which are not prosecuted for whatever reason? Without it, your fraud rate has no meaning - you're arbitrarily assuming all cases were successfully prosecuted, which is silly.
      "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

      "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

      My Personal Blog

      My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

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      • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
        That wasn't the cost of the card, it was the cost of replacing the birth certificate and other documents needed to prove citizenship.

        Here is a pdf that has some statistics. Most states normal price is under $25. And most have some short of hardship fee reduction. I think each state should have such a fee reduction (or make it free) for anyone who is unemployed or on welfare or retired.

        So I agree with you that we should be working to make sure everyone has an ID rather than arguing that people should be able to vote with no ID. That is the way to solve the problem, you get voter checks to make sure only eligible people are voting and everyone has a photo ID to use for all of the things they are needed for in today's society.

        http://sharedprosperityphila.org/doc...es-5.15.15.pdf (from 2015 so it might not be accurate any longer)
        In Alabama, my voter ID was free - the non-driver id costs $38.

        You can vote with a voter ID - I voted provisionally because I had moved and wasn't on the rolls yet - not because the Voter ID was insufficient.

        So in Alabama, it's free.
        "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

        "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

        My Personal Blog

        My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

        Quill Sword

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
          In Alabama, my voter ID was free - the non-driver id costs $38.

          You can vote with a voter ID - I voted provisionally because I had moved and wasn't on the rolls yet - not because the Voter ID was insufficient.

          So in Alabama, it's free.
          [Carpe]
          "but that's just an example, not an argument" [/carpe]

          As much as you have gone through the last couple of years, if you can get ID to vote, ANYONE who wants to can.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
            For that reason above all, there shouldn't be voter ID laws without also making absolutely sure all Americans have voter IDs. It must be ensured. Even if it requires a guy driving out to people with it. Everyone has it, or it can't be a requirement.

            If all people have ID cards. Then there's no problem. Since this is not the reality. Then it is a problem.
            Voter IDs are available to everyone. Driver's Licenses' are available to everyone that meets the criteria (can drive legally, is of age, etc) and non-driver ID's are available to everyone. Voter ID's only require a birth certificate and proof of residence (if I recall correctly) to obtain in Alabama - there is no charge.

            So, everyone who can legally vote can obtain the necessary ID. Where's the problem?
            "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

            "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

            My Personal Blog

            My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

            Quill Sword

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
              [Carpe]
              "but that's just an example, not an argument" [/carpe]

              As much as you have gone through the last couple of years, if you can get ID to vote, ANYONE who wants to can.
              "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

              "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

              My Personal Blog

              My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

              Quill Sword

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                And if some hick in outer Alabamastan can get an ID to vote, then so can someone in a less primitive backwater state.


                Comment


                • Also don't most states require a photo ID to even get any kind of social assistance? Like food stamps?

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                    And if some hick in outer Alabamastan can get an ID to vote, then so can someone in a less primitive backwater state.

                    "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                    "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                    My Personal Blog

                    My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                    Quill Sword

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                      [Carpe]
                      "but that's just an example, not an argument" [/carpe]

                      As much as you have gone through the last couple of years, if you can get ID to vote, ANYONE who wants to can.
                      Your assertion not withstanding, Sparko, the study was pretty thorough, and was very clear about the level of disenfranchisement and its effect on the vote distribution. Ignoring the data because you don't like what it says is not an exercise in rationality.

                      And an example ISN'T an argument - it's just an example. At least THAT's a true, rational statement. It's far more specific than the much loved "you're moving the goalposts" the denizens of this site seem to love so much...
                      The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                      I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                        Also don't most states require a photo ID to even get any kind of social assistance? Like food stamps?
                        I have no idea - but that STILL is an example and does not refute the study I linked to. Have you even read it?
                        The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                        I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                          I have no idea - but that STILL is an example and does not refute the study I linked to. Have you even read it?
                          I didn't see any study link. sorry. did you read the pdf I linked to?

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                            I have no idea - but that STILL is an example and does not refute the study I linked to. Have you even read it?
                            ps it is not an example. It was a relevant observation. People have to eat. Which means if the poor need IDs just to get food stamps and social help, and they apparently seem to be able to do that, then they have IDs and the whole situation regarding voting IDs is a farce.

                            Comment


                            • Also I wanted to say:

                              If there are some people who cannot meet the criteria to get a photo ID or to vote, I am OK with that. There will always be people who do not meet the criteria to accomplish something, even if it is a constitutional right.

                              Heck only about half of the people who CAN vote actually bother to in the first place. It is not like we need the votes of those who are unable to vote if we can't even get those who are able to actually vote. Work on that first.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                                I didn't see any study link. sorry. did you read the pdf I linked to?
                                I've responded to this - yes. The study is pretty far back. I'll see if I can relocate - but you can find it if you follow the thread back.
                                The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                                I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                                Comment

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