Roy Moore accused of sexual contact with 14-year old

[Cow Poke]

...he always has someone standing in the back reading Psalms aloud...

I think I'll put in for an official Psalm Psinger!

[Mountain Man]

But, unfortunately, even if what "she said" is made up, it doesn't matter - the damage is done. (Which is why I (and most Pastors I know) have very strict rules about meeting with women for counseling)

I had a friend who used to be a youth pastor. If he ever counseled teen girls, he always did it at the church during office hours when other people would be around, he always kept his office door open, and his wife was always present.

[Cow Poke]

I had a friend who used to be a youth pastor. If he ever counseled teen girls, he always did it at the church during office hours when other people would be around, he always kept his office door open, and his wife was always present.

That's wisdom.

[Teallaura]

Interesting. Occasionally, at the conclusion of a service, a woman will want to talk to me about something. I'll sit with her on the front pew, and several of my deacons know that's their cue to stay in the worship center and "straighten hymnals" or otherwise be busy 'doing something' - picking up lint, tinkering with the sound system, etc...

About two weeks ago, a woman stayed after our Wednesday evening service, and came into my office and shut the door, and started crying - (glass door, visible to and from the main hallway). Everybody else had left except one of my deacons, and he was easing his way toward the door. I tried to get his attention without being too obvious, but we waved "goodbye" and left. I told her we needed to talk in the morning, and I needed to go check the doors in the rest of the building. (I knew it was already locked, but I wanted out of there)

I wandered down the hall while she got her things together, and I waited til she left - and while I was down the hall, it suddenly occurred to me that I was "on camera" in both the hallways, so I just kinda loitered there for a minute.

This woman later complained I wouldn't talk to her, so I explained to her (on the phone) that I am extremely uncomfortable being alone in the building at night with a woman not my wife.

She actually complained to her husband, who called our deacon chairman, and said, "The pastor said he was extremely uncomfortable with my wife at night in the building alone". Our deacon chair was kinda stunned, and said, "well?"

They ended up getting mad and leaving the church. Sure, I could have handled it better, but it all kinda happened so fast, and she is a bit.... um... emotionally unstable.

Eh, I see her point - the phrasing sounds almost accusatory. Uncomfortable with her rather than, "I'm sorry, but church policy won't allow this. I want to help but because of the policy, there has to be someone else in the building when we meet to protect the church - liability issues, you understand." It sounds (and the 'emotionally unstable' doesn't help) more like a personal accusation the way you phrased it.

You boys did more damage in the damage control, judging by the description here. It wasn't about her trying to do anything wrong - obviously from your POV - but it comes off sounding like you thought she was trying something - THAT'S what ticked them both off.

[EvoUK]

That would be a possibility, but it's more to preserve propriety and to keep a safe distance so that neither can take advantage of the other.

That honestly hadn’t occurred to me.


This may not be relevant, but it reminds me of something my girlfriend has told me. Before her current job, she was a dental nurse. Now- one of the reasons she has to be in there at all times, is that when patients are sedated for a particularly difficult extraction of a tooth, they get given a specific aenesthesiac. This particular drug, as one of its side effects, *can* give patients ‘naughty’ dreams. They can then wake and insist in all honesty that the dentist has taken advantage whilst they were out. She is there as proof that this didn’t happen, and could testify to that effect.

Maybe not the same thing as a man and woman alone in a church, but I felt like sharing

[rogue06]

Editing fail:

Source: Report

The intensity of the reaction may partly reflect lingering bad feelings from the primary contest between Strange and Moore, held in late September, that pitted much of the Republican establishment — including President Donald Trump — behind Strange and the GOP's more conservative flank — including former Trump strategist Steve Bannon — behind Strange.

© Copyright Original Source

The problem with these allegations is that it seems entirely to be a 'he said, she said' situation. It is exceedingly unlikely that there is any evidence either way.

Yup. We're talking about something that allegedly happened nearly 40 years ago.

[Teallaura]

That honestly hadn’t occurred to me.


This may not be relevant, but it reminds me of something my girlfriend has told me. Before her current job, she was a dental nurse. Now- one of the reasons she has to be in there at all times, is that when patients are sedated for a particularly difficult extraction of a tooth, they get given a specific aenesthesiac. This particular drug, as one of its side effects, *can* give patients ‘naughty’ dreams. They can then wake and insist in all honesty that the dentist has taken advantage whilst they were out. She is there as proof that this didn’t happen, and could testify to that effect.

Maybe not the same thing as a man and woman alone in a church, but I felt like sharing

Cool - and relevant.

[rogue06]

I had a friend who used to be a youth pastor. If he ever counseled teen girls, he always did it at the church during office hours when other people would be around, he always kept his office door open, and his wife was always present.

Keeping the door open with someone in the other room is considered common sense at most businesses whenever a male higher up talks with a female employee "in private"

[Mountain Man]

... sorry, it’s probably obvious, but why do you have strict rules for women councelling? In case they say something you feel you should act upon, but then later turns out to be false? What rules do you have, if you don’t mind me asking?

In the case of a male counselor meeting with a female, it's an accountability thing, for one, so that nobody succumbs to temptation. It's also to protect both parties from false accusations of impropriety so that they don't wind up in a "he said/she said" scenario.

There was a youth pastor years ago in California who had a large ministry who apparently didn't have such guidelines who was accused of having sexual relations with one of the teen girls. She later admitted that she was lying to get attention, but his career as a youth pastor was pretty much over. Everybody hears the accusation, but almost nobody hears the retraction.

[Cow Poke]

Eh, I see her point - the phrasing sounds almost accusatory. Uncomfortable with her

Not what I said - "I am extremely uncomfortable being alone in the building at night with a woman not my wife"

[Cow Poke]

(and the 'emotionally unstable' doesn't help)

Perhaps you might read my post again with a little less prejudice. The "emotionally unstable" comment was added as part of my post, not part of my discussion with her.

You boys

did more damage in the damage control, judging by the description here. It wasn't about her trying to do anything wrong - obviously from your POV - but it comes off sounding like you thought she was trying something - THAT'S what ticked them both off.

No - I was trying to be delicate - this particular woman, unbeknownst to me at the time, had had an affair with a Methodist pastor while he was in the process of getting a divorce, and they had met in his office. They ended up getting married. THAT was why she was so highly offended - she thought (I learned this after the fact) I was accusing her of trying to do the same thing. The husband who called our deacon chair all irate is her 4th husband, not that anybody's counting.

THAT is what ticked them off.

[JimL]

But, unfortunately, even if what "she said" is made up, it doesn't matter - the damage is done. (Which is why I (and most Pastors I know) have very strict rules about meeting with women for counseling)

Why just women?

[seer]

Why just women?

Because I suspect that most pastors are not attracted to men, or that it would be less likely that a man would accuse a pastor of rape or the like.

[JimL]

Because I suspect that most pastors are not attracted to men, or that it would be less likely that a man would accuse a pastor of rape or the like.

Well there have been accusations by men before, plus there are children as well. Though perhaps they don't counsel children. I don't know.

[KingsGambit]

One Alabama Republican has an interesting defense: The idea that Mary may have been a teenager and Joseph much older means this isn't a problem.

http://time.com/5017940/roy-moore-se...e-jim-ziegler/

That's what we call an own goal.

It is telling that somebody who is presumably an Alabama political insider seems to be basically admitting that it's true, though.