'Transracial' man born white feels like he is Filipino...

[Psychic Missile]

So only 23% of those in the self-described party of science that have a college education think that a doctor doesn't know what he/she -- ze -- is talking about when they say to the mother of a new born baby that "it's a boy" or "it's a girl."

Then again, given how many think that just moments ago the baby was nothing but a lump of cells and not even a human being, I guess we ought to expect nothing less.

Rogue, this is a straw man argument and I expect better from you. I'm really disappointed.

[Psychic Missile]

It is not possible with today's medical tech to change sex. All you can do is try to imitate the opposite sex. Mutilating your body does not change your sex.

What do you think specifically determines what sex a person is?

[Sparko]

Gender is just how you behave, so if someone gets a sex change but doesn't act any differently (how they speak, how they dress, how they present themselves) then they changed their sex but not their gender.

There was a girl in high school. She would love to do boy things etc. Never wore dresses. She "behaved" like a boy but she always thought of herself as a girl. A girl who liked to do guy things. She had a boy friend and eventually got married. So I guess we could have called her a man then? And referred to her as "him" because of the way she acted?

I knew a very effeminate boy growing up too. I guess we could have called him "her" then because of the way he acted? and that would not have been mocking him at all?

Does that make all effeminate homosexuals into transwomen?

I don't think you have a clue what you are talking about PM. It is so easy to poke holes into everything you say.

No. Being male or female is biologically determined through genetics and someone's mind may be a different sex from their body, at which point their mind may take precedence if medical experts determine transitioning an effective treatment. Race is based on what a society thinks, so you cannot change your race without changing what society thinks, which is impossible for one person to do alone.



Did society consider MJ white or black?

who cares? is it what society thinks that counts? If so then 'society' thinks that guys who wear dresses and claim to be girls are nuts and are actually guys.

So your excuse earlier was that it was not practical to have surgery to change one's race so there was no such thing as transracial. But

1. You think someone can be transgender without surgery.
2. The "surgery" exists to make someone transracial. Michael Jackson demonstrated that. A black person could lighten their skin, straighten their hair and have minor facial surgery and pass for white. And the opposite. It is common in Japan for people to have eye surgery to make themselves appear Caucasian.

So it is possible to do. And if someone can call themselves a woman by just acting feminine and wearing a dress, then a white guy can call himself black by just dressing like a rapper and acting black. We see white kids doing that all the time. They behave black and dress black. So why are they not transracial?

wigger-2%u00255B1%u00255D.jpg

[Sparko]

What do you think specifically determines what sex a person is?

reproductive organs and chromosomes.

[Bill the Cat]

Gender is just how you behave,

No it isn't. That's why they call it "Gender Reassignment Surgery". They are "reassigning" your sex organs, not your behavior. See "gender reveals"

so if someone gets a sex change but doesn't act any differently (how they speak, how they dress, how they present themselves) then they changed their sex but not their gender.

You can't change your sex. Gender is the same thing as sex (see "gender reveals")

No. Being male or female is biologically determined through genetics and someone's mind may be a different sex from their body,

There is no such thing as a mind having a sex. That their mind thinks their body should be something else has no bearing on this.

at which point their mind may take precedence if medical experts determine transitioning an effective treatment.

Medical experts... Mutilators is more like it.

Race is based on what a society thinks

No it isn't. It's based on skin tone and country of origin, primarily.

, so you cannot change your race without changing what society thinks, which is impossible for one person to do alone.

http://www.ebony.com/news-views/whit...#axzz4yclcO8D9

[Jedidiah]

What do you think specifically determines what sex a person is?

What they are born with.

[Psychic Missile]

There was a girl in high school. She would love to do boy things etc. Never wore dresses. She "behaved" like a boy but she always thought of herself as a girl. A girl who liked to do guy things. She had a boy friend and eventually got married. So I guess we could have called her a man then? And referred to her as "him" because of the way she acted?

I knew a very effeminate boy growing up too. I guess we could have called him "her" then because of the way he acted? and that would not have been mocking him at all?

Does that make all effeminate homosexuals into transwomen?

I don't think you have a clue what you are talking about PM. It is so easy to poke holes into everything you say.

Gender is a social construct so as you have rightly argued the delineations are arbitrary. My personal rule is that I don't think about it and a person is whatever gender they say they are. It doesn't bother me none. There are plenty of academic texts about gender that will give you a better idea than I can. Otherwise, I've pretty much exhausted my knowledge of the subject, and it's quite possible some of the information I've given you isn't correct but merely my understanding.

who cares? is it what society thinks that counts? If so then 'society' thinks that guys who wear dresses and claim to be girls are nuts and are actually guys.

So your excuse earlier was that it was not practical to have surgery to change one's race so there was no such thing as transracial. But

1. You think someone can be transgender without surgery.
2. The "surgery" exists to make someone transracial. Michael Jackson demonstrated that. A black person could lighten their skin, straighten their hair and have minor facial surgery and pass for white. And the opposite. It is common in Japan for people to have eye surgery to make themselves appear Caucasian.

So it is possible to do. And if someone can call themselves a woman by just acting feminine and wearing a dress, then a white guy can call himself black by just dressing like a rapper and acting black. We see white kids doing that all the time. They behave black and dress black. So why are they not transracial?

Because society doesn't consider them a different race. If you look at how different countries classify the races for government purposes, especially in culturally distinct societies, you'll that one person could be several different races depending upon where they live. Even just in the US, we've changed how races are classified over time. The same person living in the US 100 years ago could be a different race than they would be if they were alive today. Because your race is determined by society, in order for you to become a different race, you must change how a society sees race so you are classified differently. All of this is opposed to gender, where what is defined is not who is what gender, but rather what behavior falls under what gender. Therefore, by changing your behavior, you can change your gender.

reproductive organs and chromosomes.

What if a person's reproductive organs indicate one sex but their chromosomes indicate another? Also, what if the genes on those chromosomes that work together to make someone have one sex or the other don't work properly? Would someone be the sex they were supposed to have been or the sex their abnormal genes made them?

[Psychic Missile]

No it isn't. That's why they call it "Gender Reassignment Surgery". They are "reassigning" your sex organs, not your behavior. See "gender reveals"

Sex and gender are oftentimes used interchangably since the differentiation was created relatively recently for academic purposes. In this thread, when I talk about gender, I am using the academic context.

You can't change your sex. Gender is the same thing as sex (see "gender reveals")

Interesting. Do you mind answering my question "What do you think specifically determines what sex a person is?"

There is no such thing as a mind having a sex. That their mind thinks their body should be something else has no bearing on this.

So if you were born a male, but as an infant doctors gave gave you sexual reassignment surgery and made you a woman, you don't think you'd have any trouble throughout your life? I encourage you to look into the case of David Reimer.

No it isn't. It's based on skin tone and country of origin, primarily.

How is it determined what skin color and country of origin belong to what race? How is it determined what race categories exist?

http://www.ebony.com/news-views/whit...#axzz4yclcO8D9

Notice how Fosberg didn't choose what race he was, his raced changed by circumstance. He found out more about his heritage and then society reclassified him.

[Psychic Missile]

What they are born with.

Since we are talking about a scientific subject, would you care to be more specific? Do you mean just genitals?

[Bill the Cat]

Sex and gender are oftentimes used interchangably since the differentiation was created relatively recently for academic purposes. In this thread, when I talk about gender, I am using the academic context.

The problem is that, even from an academic standpoint, usage is ambiguous.

Interesting. Do you mind answering my question "What do you think specifically determines what sex a person is?"

Chromosomes. Genetic anomalies exist, but these syndromes aren't what we are talking about.

So if you were born a male, but as an infant doctors gave gave you sexual reassignment surgery and made you a woman, you don't think you'd have any trouble throughout your life? I encourage you to look into the case of David Reimer.

First off, doctors can't "make you a woman". You are still a male with artificially created genitalia that specifically belongs to females. The case of David Reimer shows the absolute quackery of the entire process.

How is it determined what skin color and country of origin belong to what race? How is it determined what race categories exist?

You're focusing on the ambiguities. In no country would Edris Elba and I ever be considered of the same race.

Notice how Fosberg didn't choose what race he was, his raced changed by circumstance. He found out more about his heritage and then society reclassified him.

No, his race didn't change. Only what society classified him as. He didn't BECOME a black man, he just got corrected that he wasn't white. He didn't cease to be Caucasian. He simply never was.

[Sparko]

Gender is a social construct so as you have rightly argued the delineations are arbitrary. My personal rule is that I don't think about it and a person is whatever gender they say they are.

You just rendered your entire argument thus far null and void. They are who they say they are. Not how they behave, not how society sees them as you have been arguing. Yet people can't just be what race they say they are according to you.

Because society doesn't consider them a different race.

apparently it doesn't matter. They are who they say they are!

If you look at how different countries classify the races for government purposes, especially in culturally distinct societies, you'll that one person could be several different races depending upon where they live. Even just in the US, we've changed how races are classified over time. The same person living in the US 100 years ago could be a different race than they would be if they were alive today. Because your race is determined by society, in order for you to become a different race, you must change how a society sees race so you are classified differently. All of this is opposed to gender, where what is defined is not who is what gender, but rather what behavior falls under what gender. Therefore, by changing your behavior, you can change your gender.

Behavior doesn't matter, remember? They are who they say they are.

What if a person's reproductive organs indicate one sex but their chromosomes indicate another? Also, what if the genes on those chromosomes that work together to make someone have one sex or the other don't work properly? Would someone be the sex they were supposed to have been or the sex their abnormal genes made them?

sorry but even with messed up development, a person with an y chromosome won't have ovaries and vice versa. Reproductive organs depend on the x or y chromosome. besides, genetic mutants are their own special case, and don't inform on the reality of sex corresponding to gender. The whole separation of the two terms is a liberal invention.

[rogue06]

So why can't a white guy take melanin injections, get a perm and some plastic surgery on his nose and lips and become Transblack? After all Michael Jackson did it in reverse.

[Psychic Missile]

The problem is that, even from an academic standpoint, usage is ambiguous.

I agree.

Chromosomes. Genetic anomalies exist, but these syndromes aren't what we are talking about.

How do you know if a trans person doesn't have a genetic abnormality?

First off, doctors can't "make you a woman". You are still a male with artificially created genitalia that specifically belongs to females. The case of David Reimer shows the absolute quackery of the entire process.

I meant make you a woman as in make your body have the primary and secondary sexual characteristics of a woman. I should have been more clear.

You're focusing on the ambiguities. In no country would Edris Elba and I ever be considered of the same race.

I'm focusing on my argument. Scientifically, you and Elba are of the one race, the human race. Society has decided that people belong in different groups depending upon their skin color and place of origin.

No, his race didn't change. Only what society classified him as. He didn't BECOME a black man, he just got corrected that he wasn't white. He didn't cease to be Caucasian. He simply never was.

How society classifies you IS race. They are one and the same. There is no other basis for race outside of society. It is not a scientific concept.

[Psychic Missile]

You just rendered your entire argument thus far null and void. They are who they say they are. Not how they behave, not how society sees them as you have been arguing. Yet people can't just be what race they say they are according to you.



apparently it doesn't matter. They are who they say they are!

Behavior doesn't matter, remember? They are who they say they are.

Society created races and decides who belongs to what race based on arbitrary characteristics. Society decides what race you are. Society created gender roles and decides what behavior is typical for men and women. Anyone can act like the opposite sex and act "atypically". Here's a test to see if I'm right: if a white person says that they're black apropos of nothing, does society consider them black? No. If a woman decides to act like a man, does society consider them more masculine than feminine? Yes.

sorry but even with messed up development, a person with an y chromosome won't have ovaries and vice versa. Reproductive organs depend on the x or y chromosome. besides, genetic mutants are their own special case, and don't inform on the reality of sex corresponding to gender. The whole separation of the two terms is a liberal invention.

Are you saying that if a person doesn't have ovaries they aren't a woman? Also, based on current evidence, when we talk about trans people, we are talking about a genetic abnormality.

[Sparko]

Society created races and decides who belongs to what race based on arbitrary characteristics. Society decides what race you are. Society created gender roles and decides what behavior is typical for men and women. Anyone can act like the opposite sex and act "atypically". Here's a test to see if I'm right: if a white person says that they're black apropos of nothing, does society consider them black? No. If a woman decides to act like a man, does society consider them more masculine than feminine? Yes.



Are you saying that if a person doesn't have ovaries they aren't a woman? Also, based on current evidence, when we talk about trans people, we are talking about a genetic abnormality.

Do you even know what reproductive organs are? or primary sexual characteristics? The reproductive organs of a woman are her ovaries and uterus. That is what makes her a woman compared to a man who has testes.

And no I am not talking about a woman not being a woman if he has her ovaries removed. You can't remove someone's sex/gender by removing their reproductive organs.