Announcement

Collapse

Civics 101 Guidelines

Want to argue about politics? Healthcare reform? Taxes? Governments? You've come to the right place!

Try to keep it civil though. The rules still apply here.
See more
See less

Should Al Franken Resign?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Roy Moore leads by 4 percentage points over Doug Jones with 50 percent of precincts fully reporting.
    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
      So the five positions he attributed to you - are they correct?
      The first two positions are roughly the same thing - (1) thinking infanticide can be okay and (2) supporting post-birth abortions. Yes, that/those is loosely speaking my view: I think that abortions are bad things and that the number of abortions should be reduced as far as possible by the teaching of safe sex and the increased availability of contraceptives, and that abortions should be generally performed as early as possible in the pregnancy, but that there should be no barriers at all to any woman wanting an abortion for any reason, and the Netherlands has legalized infanticide/post-birth abortion in cases of medical need and I strongly support that.

      The other three positions he cites are significant misrepresentations of my views on those topics, and you can take them to be largely not correct. (3) I don't have any strong opinions on bestiality and have no idea what I would want as the law on the subject, though I have a number of potential concerns about it. One of those would certainly be harm done to the animals. (4) A friend on this forum once suggested that it might be potentially possible to prevent pedophiles raping children by letting them focus their desires on pornography rather than actual children, and I think I chimed in with something like "that's an interesting thought, I wonder if there's any research on that?", and just about every conservative in this forum decided they were going to willfully misinterpret my friend's post (it was crystal clear in the original context that it was a thought experiment, as the friend repeatedly stated in the thread) as being some great declaration of support for pedophilia (which neither he nor I support, obviously, just let's be clear on that). (5) Yes I think US conservatives are pretty prudish, but I don't have any opinions that I can think of offhand as to whether or not I would support mixed-gender showers in general as opposed to gender segregated ones.
      Last edited by Starlight; 12-12-2017, 08:33 PM.
      "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
      "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
      "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

      Comment


      • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
        So the five positions he attributed to you - are they correct?
        They are,

        Originally posted by Starlight View Post
        Originally posted by JimL View Post
        Did I miss something? Did Starlight actually say somewhere that he is in favor of infanticide up to the age of three? I highly doubt it.
        I think that the killing of a fetus becomes wrong at about 25 weeks or so (but not very wrong, and so relatively easily morally justifiable if some other good is achieved through doing so), and gets progressively more and more wrong as time passes, and maxes out about the age of 3 where it is as wrong as the killing of an adult by that point. (See my above post for arduous detail)
        Originally posted by Starlight View Post
        Originally posted by seer View Post
        On Singer:

        Abortion, euthanasia, and infanticide

        Singer holds that the right to life is essentially tied to a being's capacity to hold preferences, which in turn is essentially tied to a being's capacity to feel pain and pleasure.

        In Practical Ethics, Singer argues in favour of abortion rights on the grounds that fetuses are neither rational nor self-aware, and can therefore hold no preferences. As a result, he argues that the preference of a mother to have an abortion automatically takes precedence. In sum, Singer argues that a fetus lacks personhood.

        Similar to his argument for abortion, Singer argues that newborns lack the essential characteristics of personhood—"rationality, autonomy, and self-consciousness"[37]—and therefore "killing a newborn baby is never equivalent to killing a person, that is, a being who wants to go on living."

        Singer classifies euthanasia as voluntary, involuntary, or non-voluntary. Voluntary euthanasia is that to which the subject consents. He argues in favour of voluntary euthanasia and some forms of non-voluntary euthanasia, including infanticide in certain instances, but opposes involuntary euthanasia.

        In 2002 disability rights activist Harriet McBryde Johnson debated Singer, challenging his belief that it is morally permissible to euthanize new-born children with severe disabilities. "Unspeakable Conversations", Johnson's account of her encounters with Singer and the pro-euthanasia movement, was published in the New York Times Magazine in 2003. It also served as inspiration for The Thrill, a 2013 play by Judith Thompson partly based on Johnson's life.


        He supports infanticide, which should make you happy Star.
        So does Dawkins if you watch the discussion in the OP.

        As Singer points out, it is fairly common for hospitals to actually do infanticide - in quite a lot of neonatal wards where the baby is born particularly early and is suffering serious complications due to it and highly likely to have serious disabilities for life as a result, the doctors will often offer the parents the option of simply ceasing all life support for the infant and letting it die rather than going to the effort to keep it alive to live a seriously sub-optimal life.

        Originally posted by seer View Post
        And he has no problem with bestiality if it is mutually satisfying with no harm.

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_...nd_infanticide
        I don't have really have a personal opinion on or any interest in the subject. I guess I agree with Singer that if no harm is being caused then there's no problem, but can see that you could easily argue that if it's legal then there's a potential for harm, e.g. the Enumclaw horse sex case where a man died due to having sex with a horse.
        Originally posted by Starlight View Post
        Yeah, I'm befuzzled by the war on child porn, given that I would have thought that letting these people look at porn gives them an alternative outlet for their desires, and making existing child porn freely available saturates the market and thus strongly disincentives the making of new child porn.

        On the whole I find the SJW's approach to this entire topic a bit befuddling. Penalties for things like underage sex have been repeatedly raised through the roof, to the point where it gets completely silly like where if a boyfriend is one month older than his girlfriend and he's above the age of consent but she's still below it, then he gets hit with massive penalties and life-long sex-offender status etc if they have sex. It's ridiculous.
        Originally posted by Starlight View Post
        I don't really understand the mindsets of US Conservatives in these matters...

        I mean, in lots of countries the kids at the beach are often naked to the age of about 4. In Europe and South America, women sunbathing topless can be quite common. In various parts of Europe, naked saunas with both genders are a thing. Any children who grow up on farms will see animals mating on a regular basis and understand the idea. And until recently in human history it's been reasonably common for families to live together in single-roomed houses in which the children were present while their parents do the deed.

        In short, children don't melt die, or otherwise combust, if they know or see the differences between males and females, or if they know about or see sex. The idea that we need to withhold information to protect them is absurd, and says much more about our own lack of comfort with such subjects and our unwillingness to talk about them, than it says anything at all about whether it matters if children know or see things about gender or sexuality.

        Yet despite that, US conservatives seem to see it as their job to protect the little babies from the scary knowledge. Thus, they try and sabotage sex education classes. Thus they try and make sure no girl ever sees a boy's peepee. They flip out at the idea of mixed gender showers because of their prudishness (I don't necessarily object to prudishness itself, I'm from a similar culture that's similarly prudish and even frowns at the idea of same-gender showers, and am happy saying any level of prudishness is just an arbitrary cultural norm). Yet... bizarrely... they seem totally fine with same-gender showers, and don't mind the idea of all the boys in the locker-room showering together, even though it's inevitable that a reasonable percentage of those boys are gay. It's apparently important to keep the transgender kids out of the locker-room in case something is seen, but the gay kids can look all they want, or something. Unless... bizarrely... the kid openly comes out as gay, and then it's apparently a big problem, because it means sports teams can't cope with the kid being in the locker-room. They were fine with the kid looking at the them naked when he was gay but hadn't told them he was, but they can't handle him being in the locker-room after he's told them. It all seems bizarre to me and full of double-standards and unjustifiable views.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
          You have Adrift on ignore because he drives you crazy,
          Yes, his constant misrepresentations of what people have said, including myself, including himself, including sources he cites, drives me crazy.

          and you have no good answer for him.
          Er... how can anyone have an "answer for him"? Is he associated with a particular question?
          "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
          "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
          "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

          Comment


          • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
            You have Adrift on ignore because he drives you crazy, and you have no good answer for him.
            I knew there was something I loved about Adrift!
            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Adrift View Post
              They are,
              Having temporarily disabled 'ignore' for the duration of this discussion, I will say that I am fine with most of the quotes from me there and think they stand on their own without further context. Carped9587 and any other readers can use them to judge for themselves whether they feel your characterizations were correct.

              The one I do that take slight issue with is the child porn one which was part of a much longer wildly speculative discussion and thought experiment that gives it context in a way that is not evident in the quote itself. Although in the quote itself I do state "I would have thought that..." which again indicates speculation and tossing around of ideas, not stating a firm position or opinion.
              "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
              "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
              "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                Having temporarily disabled 'ignore' for the duration of this discussion, I will say that I am fine with most of the quotes from me there and think they stand on their own without further context. Carped9587 and any other readers can use them to judge for themselves whether they feel your characterizations were correct.

                The one I do that take slight issue with is the child porn one which was part of a much longer wildly speculative discussion and thought experiment that gives it context in a way that is not evident in the quote itself. Although in the quote itself I do state "I would have thought that..." which again indicates speculation and tossing around of ideas, not stating a firm position or opinion.
                Dude, you've never had me on ignore. Your ego won't keep you from seeing what people have to say about you. My characterization was spot on.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                  Dude, you've never had me on ignore.
                  I've given you a few second chances where I've taken you off and then immediately put you back on because I see false claims like this.

                  Your ego won't keep you from seeing what people have to say about you.
                  My ego? Dude, I'm not the one claiming that you just can't keep your eyes off my posts. Look in the mirror if you want to see an ego.
                  "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                  "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                  "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                    Why are you leaving?
                    He's made his utter contempt of everyone on this board who disagrees with him clear, repeatedly.
                    I DENOUNCE DONALD J. TRUMP AND ALL HIS IMMORAL ACTS.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                      Roy Moore leads by 4 percentage points over Doug Jones with 50 percent of precincts fully reporting.
                      Unfortunately, for Moore - they were apparently the rural districts we were discussing. Once the metros came in, Jones popped into the lead and is currently the projected winner - though with less than a 1% margin.

                      Still, I am AMAZED that Alabama seems to have elected a Democrat. That bodes quite well for some rebalancing in Congress in 2018.

                      Of course - we went to bed in the 1940s thinking Dewey had won - so Moore still may pull it off...
                      The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                      I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                        Unfortunately, for Moore - they were apparently the rural districts we were discussing. Once the metros came in, Jones popped into the lead and is currently the projected winner - though with less than a 1% margin.

                        Still, I am AMAZED that Alabama seems to have elected a Democrat. That bodes quite well for some rebalancing in Congress in 2018.

                        Of course - we went to bed in the 1940s thinking Dewey had won - so Moore still may pull it off...
                        congress is already cancerously moderate, i'm not sure how much more moderate you think it can get, especially since Jones is just as much of an extremist as moore

                        what you don't seem to get is that the bulk of the country is "extremist" and getting increasingly tired of moderates whose sole purpose is to enrich themselves and their corporate masters
                        "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

                        There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                          Seems pretty doubtful as two of the friends who have come to the same view as me and left (one being Sam, the other's username here I don't recall from years ago) were relatively centrist and didn't subscribe to my political views. Jaecp I guess you could argue was 'extreme left' in the sense that he was/is a committed democrat/progressive.

                          I think it's just you guys. I don't have these kinds of issues on other sites.
                          IIRC Sam considered himself liberal but then for you even the most ardent Socialist is really a right winger

                          I'm always still in trouble again

                          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                            Unfortunately, for Moore - they were apparently the rural districts we were discussing. Once the metros came in, Jones popped into the lead and is currently the projected winner - though with less than a 1% margin.

                            Still, I am AMAZED that Alabama seems to have elected a Democrat. That bodes quite well for some rebalancing in Congress in 2018.

                            Of course - we went to bed in the 1940s thinking Dewey had won - so Moore still may pull it off...
                            He didn't.

                            Just goes to show even Alabamastanis could be expected to put up with only so much.

                            I'm always still in trouble again

                            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                            "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                              IIRC Sam considered himself liberal but then for you even the most ardent Socialist is really a right winger
                              As far as I can recall, I have never in my life considered someone who self-described as "socialist" to be a right-winger. I would think anyone who self-describes as "socialist" is left of center on any Western political spectrum.

                              I find it kind of amusing how radical you perceive me to be. I mean, I'd love to see a return of the tax rates, economic policies, and strong labor unions, that the US had under Eisenhower. Eisenhower was Republican... does that make me right wing?

                              My country has had government-provided healthcare for ~75 years, much like the UK has (~73 years there)... and it's worked well and no parties have seriously suggested getting rid of it, because it's cheap and efficient. I look at the US and you guys are wasting huge amounts of money on an incredibly complex health monstrosity that doesn't even cover everyone. Naturally I think you're doing it wrong. Does that make me a radical left-winger, or just make me someone who comes from a country who 75 years ago tried a different way of doing things and it turned out better? Raphael likes it too, and he's a 'right-winger' by our standards.

                              I agree with the people you Americans call 'progressives' in your politics on social policies... but so do most Americans these days. Progressive social policies seem to have won in the US and achieved both implementation and majority support.

                              There's honestly very few weird or unusual policies I support: Like, abolish the rampant corruption in the US system, give me back some New Deal economics from the 50s and 60s and do the high-taxes on the rich high-spending on infrastructure and society thing, support unions and workers' rights, keep the progressive social policies that have been implemented in the modern era, stop doing wars around the world, and respect the human rights of people in your country, and that's me 99% happy.

                              Whereas there are plenty of radicals who think "we should completely abolish the current capitalist and democratic system and all live in small communes..." or "we should abolish government and replace it with..." and that is definitely not me.
                              "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                              "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                              "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
                                congress is already cancerously moderate, i'm not sure how much more moderate you think it can get, especially since Jones is just as much of an extremist as moore

                                what you don't seem to get is that the bulk of the country is "extremist" and getting increasingly tired of moderates whose sole purpose is to enrich themselves and their corporate masters
                                Very interesting how you et. al. can recognize there is political corruption, and then support the politically corrupt. Trump and his appointed cronies, along with the republican congress are doing the will of the corporations, the banks, and the extremely wealthy right now, so in what sense are the corporations the masters of the democrats. Weird how the conservative brain works!

                                Comment

                                Related Threads

                                Collapse

                                Topics Statistics Last Post
                                Started by little_monkey, 03-27-2024, 04:19 PM
                                16 responses
                                162 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post One Bad Pig  
                                Started by whag, 03-26-2024, 04:38 PM
                                53 responses
                                400 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Mountain Man  
                                Started by rogue06, 03-26-2024, 11:45 AM
                                25 responses
                                114 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post rogue06
                                by rogue06
                                 
                                Started by Hypatia_Alexandria, 03-26-2024, 09:21 AM
                                33 responses
                                198 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Roy
                                by Roy
                                 
                                Started by Hypatia_Alexandria, 03-26-2024, 08:34 AM
                                84 responses
                                380 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post JimL
                                by JimL
                                 
                                Working...
                                X