Should Al Franken Resign?

[Teallaura]

You don't know that. The black vote was larger than it was for Obamas general election bid, and they weren't just coming out against Moore, they were coming out against Trump.

Baloney. Jones was barely running before the accusations and turn out that high for a special election didn't run on coattails - that's nonsensical, given the actual campaigns.

[JimL]

Baloney. Jones was barely running before the accusations and turn out that high for a special election didn't run on coattails - that's nonsensical, given the actual campaigns.

Sure it did, they're motivated, they hate Trump, and Democrats have a new philosophy, don't ignore red states. They had a huge get out the vote campaign down there.

[Teallaura]

Sure it did, they're motivated, they hate Trump, and Democrats have a new philosophy, don't ignore red states. They had a huge get out the vote campaign down there.

Which started right after the accusations - yeah, sure, Jim - just coincidence. NOT.

[Adrift]

There were TWO allegations of assault - not nine.

There were nine allegations of sexual misconduct, http://www.newsweek.com/roy-moore-al...mmaries-713744

The 'independent witness' was the one that thought Moore had been banned - but no one else back up that story, including the mall manager.

Nope, that's not the case,

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roy_Moore_sexual_misconduct_allegations#Allegations_by_other_women

Allegations by other women

Phyllis Smith, who worked in the local mall, stated that Moore had not approached her personally, but she had seen him talking to other young clerks. She said, "I can remember him walking in and the whole mood would change with us girls ... It would be like we were on guard ... I remember being creeped out." Thus, Smith warned others to "watch out for this guy".[35]

General behavior and alleged ban from mall

A former colleague who worked with Moore at the Etowah County District Attorney's office from 1982 to 1985 stated, "It was common knowledge that Roy dated high school girls, everyone we knew thought it was weird [...] We wondered why someone his age would hang out at high school football games and the mall".[36][37] At least four current and former residents of Etowah County have corroborated the colleague's story. One said, "These stories have been going around this town for 30 years ... Nobody could believe they hadn't come out yet". Another said, "Him liking and dating young girls was never a secret in Gadsden when we were all in high school ... In our neighborhoods up by Noccalula Falls we heard it all the time. Even people at the courthouse know it was a well-known secret ... It's just sad how these girls [who accused Moore] are getting hammered and called liars, especially Leigh [Corfman]."[38]

On November 13, The New Yorker quoted multiple local former police officers and mall employees who had heard that Roy Moore had been banned from the Gadsden Mall in the early 1980s for attempting to pick up teenage girls.[39][40] An Alabama woman said that Moore was banned from the mall in the late 1970s after she reported to her manager that he was sexually harassing her.[41] Local news channel WBRC interviewed Barnes Boyle, a manager of the mall from 1981 to 1998, who said that, to his knowledge, Moore was not banned.[42] The Moore campaign has now produced two other witnesses, a longtime mall employee and the Operations Manager overseeing mall security, both of whom state that he was never banned from the mall.[43]

Faye Gray,[44] a retired detective, who is a 37 year veteran of the Gadsden police force, stated that in the 1980s she was told to look out for Roy Moore due to his known harassment of cheerleaders at local school athletic events. The detective said that she also had heard that Moore had been banned from the Gadsden Mall and also said that both in the police department and at the Gadsden courthouse there were frequent mentions of Moore liking young girls. She said "I didn't realize until sometime later that when they said he liked young girls, I just thought he liked young ladies, you know, maybe in their 20s. I had no idea, or we had no idea, that we were talking about 14-year-olds."[45]

© Copyright Original Source

Notice the allegations by those who acknowledged that he cruised the mall are not necessarily the same as those who claimed he was banned from the mall.

There's no substance at all in the mall allegations. The two assault allegations are anything but credible. The only credible allegations aren't illegal, immoral and were done with the consent of the parents (which makes the two assault allegations even more suspect).

There's more than enough reason to believe that Moore had a penchant for teenage girls as a 30 year old, and that he cruised the mall to find them. That he was within his legal rights, and obtained parental consent to date teenagers as a thirty year old doesn't make the optics look any better.

[Adrift]

Write ins are virtually useless to the major parties. They exist primarily for independents and cases where the parties need to replace a candidate (withdrawal or death) and can't. Running a write in campaign is incredibly expensive - you have to have a lot of name recognition and you have to change voter behavior so you have to run a lot harder than the major party candidates and generally without a fraction of the funds.

There are cases of write in winners - but they are the exception, not the rule.

Then write-ins ought to be banned because all they do is instill false hope, and just goes to prove that the entire voting process is a scam.

[Cow Poke]

There were TWO allegations of assault - not nine.

Nope, there were nine, http://www.newsweek.com/roy-moore-al...mmaries-713744

Look at each of the cases in your cite, Adrift. Several of those were just about dating, no allegation of assault. So, the number appears to be between two and nine.

According to that cite...

Leigh Corfman - sounds like allegation of assault
Debbie Gibson - they kissed
Wendy Miller - he asked her on a date
Gloria Deason - kissing but "never going further"
Beverly Nelson - he groped her breasts
Tina Johnson - he groped her
Kelly Thorp - asked her for a date
Gena Richardson - unwanted "forceful" kiss
Becky Gray - persisted on asking for dates, making her uncomfortable

While creepy, not all of these are "assaults"

[Adrift]

Look at each of the cases in your cite, Adrift. Several of those were just about dating, no allegation of assault. So, the number appears to be between two and nine.

According to that cite...

Leigh Corfman - sounds like allegation of assault
Debbie Gibson - they kissed
Wendy Miller - he asked her on a date
Gloria Deason - kissing but "never going further"
Beverly Nelson - he groped her breasts
Tina Johnson - he groped her
Kelly Thorp - asked her for a date
Gena Richardson - unwanted "forceful" kiss
Becky Gray - persisted on asking for dates, making her uncomfortable

While creepy, not all of these are "assaults"

Yeah, I edited my post when I saw that Teal replied to my post by specifying "assault". I was, of course, referring to the 9 allegations of sexual misconduct in general.

[Cow Poke]

Yeah, I edited my post when I saw that Teal replied to my post by specifying "assault". I was, of course, referring to the 9 allegations of sexual misconduct in general.

Sorry

[carpedm9587]

Most of what Trump promised he had no intention of accomplishing. That's the difference between Trump and well meaning politicians, he's naught but a con man. And yes there are many pols whose intentions match their promises even if they aren't able to follow through on them. Trump, in fashion with the republican party that he now owns, had no such intentions. His intentions were to enrich himself and his oligarch friends, many of whom he gave positions in his administration.

I'm not sure you can make that case, Jim. Even mainstream politicians will acknowledge that there is a difference between campaigning and governing. And I know of no race I have ever observed where candidates did not make audacious claims about what they were going to achieve, with very wobbly numbers to back them up. In that respect, the only difference I see between Trump and other politicians is the nature of his promises - which were nationalistic/populist/divisive in scope. They were designed to appeal to the spiriti of anger and divisiveness permeating our country.

You're confusing democrats with republicans, you're trying to be fair, but you're not. It isn't Democrats who have the my way or the highway attitude. They worked with the republicans on the ACA for a long time and the republicans were not going to vote for it no matter what. It still isn't the legislation that the Democrats would have prefered, but what they got does need fixing and democrats have been only too willing to work on those fixes with republicans. But like I said, republicans don't want to fix anything, they want to be rid of it, because it's their way or the highway. And you're right, they're doing the same thing with the tax bill. Theres been no hearings, no Democrat input at all. So both parties are not guilty in the same way, republicans are corrupt as a party, they're owned by the wealthy doners, and they're going to do what their doners tell them to do regardless of what they sell to their naive middle class constituents.

Yes - I am aware of the difference between the current Republican initiatives and what Democrats did. I am also aware that the Republicans made a point of making their goal to obstruct Obama at every turn, even before he took office (that is on the record), and followed through on it. Democrats did, however, dig in their heals and refuse to compromise on several points, furthering the situation. And Democrats today have essentially taken up the same stance, seemingly in retaliation. IMO, the proper way to govern is to cooperate on common ground issues, compromise on differences, and resist on matters of deeply held value. Both parties, at this point, appear to classify everything as the latter, undermining the democratic process.

Well, hopefully we can do better than that, the republican electorate just need wake up and let their representatives know that they are on to them.

We ALL need to wake up, and stop making the opposition the enemy. Republicans have solid planks in their platform, that should be paid attention to. Democrats as well.

Again, republicans don't, and have no intention of, compromising on anything.

And, currently, I don't see a lot of difference in the electorate or Democratic governance. There is some, I grant you. Democrats have SAID they will join on tax reform if it is deficit neutral and does not favor the wealthy at the expense of the poor. It is easy to say such things when you know the opposition is going to reject them out of hand. It is not clear what would actually happen. This is the scenario (in reverse) the Republicans found themselves in on repeal-and-replace. It was easy to say when they had no chance of achieving it. When they finally had control - and could have done it - they had essentially nothing ready to go, and the results was a mess.

Thanks, I'm familiar with them, and I think we may need to go in that direction. This two party system is to tribal. More and more people are becoming independents and i think thats a good thing because the other party, i.e the republican party is satan.

Hopefully, you are actually joking. But your other posts suggest you really aren't. IMO, that makes you identical to the people you are taking such issue with. A person who disagrees with me may be the opposition. They are not the enemy unless I make them so. And they are not unpatriotic unless their intent is to undermine or destroy America. I think we have vastly differing views on what America should be and how to get there - but the vast majority of us love the country we live in, and want it to thrive.

[seer]

NBC Made Payment To Staffer After Sexual Harassment Claim Against Chris Matthews

http://dailycaller.com/2017/12/16/nb...hris-matthews/

[Teallaura]

One of the factors in the Salem witch hunt was the tidal wave of accusations as the year progressed.

[Sparko]

Apparently - that is your definition. PC gets tossed around, in my experience, whenever someone experiences themselves being criticized for something they don't want to look at or think is an "unreasonable" demand.

I just wanted to wish Carpe a non-sorrowful non-religious winter solstice celebration!

[carpedm9587]

I just wanted to wish Carpe a non-sorrowful non-religious winter solstice celebration!

Cute...

[Cow Poke]

I just wanted to wish Carpe a non-sorrowful non-religious winter solstice celebration!

That "higher power" smacks of slavery, you bigot.

[Mountain Man]

I also suspect that in a couple of decades, Mommy is going to hold a press conference and accuse Santa Claus of sexual assault.