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Should Al Franken Resign?

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  • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
    Back when I was in college and took a few law classes we had a debate over which amendment was the least relevant in the late 20th cent. I argued for the 3rd Amendment which prohibiting the quartering of troops in private homes without the consent of the owner. I don't think that issue has come up before the court.
    It's come up in Federal court and as supporting reasoning by the Supreme Court but there are no major Supreme Court rulings on it.

    I don't think this really means it's unnecessary - the Court takes so few cases and it comes up so rarely that it's impossible to say it has no impact.
    "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

    "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

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    • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
      Then you're blind - and evidently deliberately.
      No - but, as I said to CP earlier - my experience is that, when someone has already decided what I am thinking and what my motivations are, there usually is nothing I can do about it. I continue to be amazed when other people claim to know more about what is in my head than I, but...

      Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
      Baloney - this is self-serving and you know it.
      Same comment...

      Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
      Again, self-serving - you got what you wanted by unfair means and you know it - this is just an attempt to self justify. It's not working on anyone besides yourself - and I doubt it would work on you if you really thought about it.
      Teal, my comments were on the basis of pure math and statistics. Jones won by an eyelash. If Moore hadn't been accused, Moore would have won. If the get-out-the-vote to the African American community hadn't worked as well as it did, Moore would have one. If Moore hadn't made his comments about the age of slavery and civil war monuments, he probably would have won. If Moore hadn't made his antipathy for the constitution so clear, he probably would have won. Any of these issues could/would have turned the tide. To lay his defeat at the foot of one of them makes no mathematical sense to me. It took all of them in combination to bring him down.

      If you consider that "self serving" - when I don't even LIVE in Alabama - so be it. You're wrong - but I can't imagine anything I say will convince you of that. If previous experience is to be a predictor - you will continue to insist you know better than I what I think and feel.

      Always makes me
      The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

      I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

      Comment


      • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
        ...


        Teal, my comments were on the basis of pure math and statistics. Jones won by an eyelash. If Moore hadn't been accused, Moore would have won. If the get-out-the-vote to the African American community hadn't worked as well as it did, Moore would have one. If Moore hadn't made his comments about the age of slavery and civil war monuments, he probably would have won. If Moore hadn't made his antipathy for the constitution so clear, he probably would have won. Any of these issues could/would have turned the tide. To lay his defeat at the foot of one of them makes no mathematical sense to me. It took all of them in combination to bring him down.

        If you consider that "self serving" - when I don't even LIVE in Alabama - so be it. You're wrong - but I can't imagine anything I say will convince you of that. If previous experience is to be a predictor - you will continue to insist you know better than I what I think and feel.

        Always makes me
        Would you please make up your mind? Or at least evaluate the thing rationally. The last two might have had an effect in the race with Strange - but Moore won that and it was all old news. No, neither of those factors handed Jones a fighting chance - that happened on the basis of accusations that cannot be substantiated and which show no pattern of behavior or continuation of behavior. The 'get out the vote' drive stood no chance of working without it - it was a special election and turnout for those is notoriously low.

        He didn't lose because of his political views - he lost because of the political hit job that attacked through unsubstantiated accusations. You want to pretend that anything other than those accusations had the potential to cause the upset, that's your prerogative - but it's nonsense from a political and statistical POV.
        "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

        "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

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        • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
          Would you please make up your mind? Or at least evaluate the thing rationally. The last two might have had an effect in the race with Strange - but Moore won that and it was all old news. No, neither of those factors handed Jones a fighting chance - that happened on the basis of accusations that cannot be substantiated and which show no pattern of behavior or continuation of behavior. The 'get out the vote' drive stood no chance of working without it - it was a special election and turnout for those is notoriously low.

          He didn't lose because of his political views - he lost because of the political hit job that attacked through unsubstantiated accusations. You want to pretend that anything other than those accusations had the potential to cause the upset, that's your prerogative - but it's nonsense from a political and statistical POV.
          Agree that the accusations are what lost him the race, but the accusations seemed substantial enough to warrant it. NINE women came forward with allegations. Moore denied sexually assaulting the women, but the fact that he admitted to chasing after women as young as 16 when he was in his 30s was likely enough to make his average supporter furrow their brows. Independent allegations that he haunted malls chasing after teenagers didn't help, and hearing that at least one of the women was as young as 14 pretty much put the nail in the coffin. Honestly, after that point, the Republicans ought to have put someone else on the ballot. If I lived in Alabama I wouldn't have voted for him (I wouldn't have voted for Jones either though).

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          • Originally posted by Adrift View Post
            Agree that the accusations are what lost him the race, but the accusations seemed substantial enough to warrant it. NINE women came forward with allegations. Moore denied sexually assaulting the women, but the fact that he admitted to chasing after women as young as 16 when he was in his 30s was likely enough to make his average supporter furrow their brows. Independent allegations that he haunted malls chasing after teenagers didn't help, and hearing that at least one of the women was as young as 14 pretty much put the nail in the coffin. Honestly, after that point, the Republicans ought to have put someone else on the ballot. If I lived in Alabama I wouldn't have voted for him (I wouldn't have voted for Jones either though).
            Two women accused him - you can't accuse someone of something that isn't illegal. The seven other cases all stated that Moore had their respective parent's permission and respected it when withdrawn. The mall accusations were never substantiated - and the attempt to do so was refuted by the manager of the mall.

            If the statute weren't up, Moore couldn't have been convicted on the two actual accusations - and only an insane DA would have prosecuted.

            I didn't care for the facts - the substantiated ones - but they are mitigated by the parental approval. Further, the Republicans couldn't have put someone else on the ballot - that was impossible. The first accusation came just after he won the primary in the runoff - Strange could not have been placed on the ballot at that point and neither could anyone else.
            "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

            "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

            My Personal Blog

            My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

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            • Originally posted by Adrift View Post
              Agree that the accusations are what lost him the race, but the accusations seemed substantial enough to warrant it. NINE women came forward with allegations. Moore denied sexually assaulting the women, but the fact that he admitted to chasing after women as young as 16 when he was in his 30s was likely enough to make his average supporter furrow their brows. Independent allegations that he haunted malls chasing after teenagers didn't help, and hearing that at least one of the women was as young as 14 pretty much put the nail in the coffin. Honestly, after that point, the Republicans ought to have put someone else on the ballot. If I lived in Alabama I wouldn't have voted for him (I wouldn't have voted for Jones either though).
              IIRC by the time the allegations were sprung it was too late to change the ballot. They were obviously timed for maximum effectiveness.
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              Comment


              • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                Two women accused him - you can't accuse someone of something that isn't illegal. The seven other cases all stated that Moore had their respective parent's permission and respected it when withdrawn. The mall accusations were never substantiated - and the attempt to do so was refuted by the manager of the mall.

                If the statute weren't up, Moore couldn't have been convicted on the two actual accusations - and only an insane DA would have prosecuted.

                I didn't care for the facts - the substantiated ones - but they are mitigated by the parental approval. Further, the Republicans couldn't have put someone else on the ballot - that was impossible. The first accusation came just after he won the primary in the runoff - Strange could not have been placed on the ballot at that point and neither could anyone else.
                I don't see how it matters if he sincerely got some parent's permission to date their young teenage daughters, it's still weird, and gross for a man in his 30s to do so. The allegations were enough to turn the hearts of people against him, and in my opinion for good reason. That's not someone I'd want in a position of power. Also as far as I understand it, the independent mall accusations weren't refuted. What was refuted was that he was banned from the mall. Assuming that everything he did was on the up and up and legal, the optics of those allegations that he did not deny were more than enough to give people a second thought. If it was too late for the Republicans to pick someone else, well then tough luck. Were write in votes banned? Is that not a thing after a primary runoff?

                Comment


                • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                  IIRC by the time the allegations were sprung it was too late to change the ballot. They were obviously timed for maximum effectiveness.
                  According to Wikipedia, "Moore faced Democratic nominee Doug Jones, a former United States Attorney, as well as write-in Republicans Mac Watson and Lee Busby, write-in Libertarian Ron Bishop, and write-in independents Arlester McBride and Eulas Kirtdoll, in the special election on December 12, 2017." Are you saying people were forbidden to elect anyone but Moore or Jones?

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                    According to Wikipedia, "Moore faced Democratic nominee Doug Jones, a former United States Attorney, as well as write-in Republicans Mac Watson and Lee Busby, write-in Libertarian Ron Bishop, and write-in independents Arlester McBride and Eulas Kirtdoll, in the special election on December 12, 2017." Are you saying people were forbidden to elect anyone but Moore or Jones?
                    You said the Republicans should have replaced him on the ballot - write ins aren't ON the ballot. Moore could not have been replaced - it's not legally possible.
                    "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                    "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                    My Personal Blog

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                    • Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                      I don't see how it matters if he sincerely got some parent's permission to date their young teenage daughters, it's still weird, and gross for a man in his 30s to do so. The allegations were enough to turn the hearts of people against him, and in my opinion for good reason. That's not someone I'd want in a position of power. Also as far as I understand it, the independent mall accusations weren't refuted. What was refuted was that he was banned from the mall. Assuming that everything he did was on the up and up and legal, the optics of those allegations that he did not deny were more than enough to give people a second thought. If it was too late for the Republicans to pick someone else, well then tough luck. Were write in votes banned? Is that not a thing after a primary runoff?
                      Forty years ago with no continuation after his marriage - and no substantiation at all that he violated the law.

                      You don't see a difference between dating with parental consent and without it, ESPECIALLY given the age difference? Seriously?

                      It was a political hit job based on some long ago actions - you think that's a fair way to treat anyone?
                      "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                      "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                      My Personal Blog

                      My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                      Quill Sword

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                      • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                        You said the Republicans should have replaced him on the ballot - write ins aren't ON the ballot. Moore could not have been replaced - it's not legally possible.
                        Fair enough. As far as I can tell it looks like the first allegations sprung up in early November (Nov 9th?) The Republicans couldn't have thrown their support towards a write-in from then till the election?

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                          Fair enough. As far as I can tell it looks like the first allegations sprung up in early November (Nov 9th?) The Republicans couldn't have thrown their support towards a write-in from then till the election?
                          Could have - but why bother? It's the same effective thing as conceding the election if their candidate doesn't step aside - and even if he does. Write in campaigns are almost never successful - the name recognition simply isn't there for one (of several) things.
                          "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                          "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                          My Personal Blog

                          My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                          Quill Sword

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                            Forty years ago with no continuation after his marriage - and no substantiation at all that he violated the law.

                            You don't see a difference between dating with parental consent and without it, ESPECIALLY given the age difference? Seriously?

                            It was a political hit job based on some long ago actions - you think that's a fair way to treat anyone?
                            I don't see a difference between a 30 year old dating a teenager with parental consent and without it, no. I think both are weird. Maybe weirder that parents would offer consent, to be honest. Who does that? Things might have been different in Alabama back in the 70s compared to the rest of the US, but they weren't THAT different.

                            But had it merely been an issue where he was accused of something that he did that was creepy yet legal, people might have been able to brush that off, I suppose (I don't know if I would have). The allegations of assault (9 in total), with a back story that he didn't deny, gave more than enough credence to think that yeah, there was likely something more going on. I mean, come on....nine allegations, and independent witnesses that he was cruising the mall for teenagers? You honestly don't think there was any substance to any of that? From a 1 Thessalonians 5 point of view, it's the appearance of evil that did him in. He put himself in circumstances where these allegations had grounds for looking truthful, and again, if I were the voting type, I'd definitely write someone else in.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                              Could have - but why bother? It's the same effective thing as conceding the election if their candidate doesn't step aside - and even if he does. Write in campaigns are almost never successful - the name recognition simply isn't there for one (of several) things.
                              As I understood it, Jones wasn't much of an opponent. You're saying that had the full body of the Republican party put their focus on some other candidate, that candidate would have no chance? What's the point of a write-in then? Why not ban write-ins altogether if they're so ineffectual?

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                                As I understood it, Jones wasn't much of an opponent. You're saying that had the full body of the Republican party put their focus on some other candidate, that candidate would have no chance? What's the point of a write-in then? Why not ban write-ins altogether if they're so ineffectual?
                                Well, write-in candidates can win. It's very rare, but it has happened, like with Lisa Murkowski.

                                In regards to banning write-ins, I think there are probably some legal problems with that. I know some ballot access laws have been struck down by judges for being too restrictive, so I can't imagine that outright banning write-ins would fly.

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