Should Al Franken Resign?

[Cow Poke]

As I understood it, Jones wasn't much of an opponent. You're saying that had the full body of the Republican party put their focus on some other candidate, that candidate would have no chance? What's the point of a write-in then? Why not ban write-ins altogether if they're so ineffectual?

Unfortunately, the Republicans seem absolutely incapable of throwing their full bodied support toward anything, which is why I left the party years ago.

[carpedm9587]

Would you please make up your mind? Or at least evaluate the thing rationally. The last two might have had an effect in the race with Strange - but Moore won that and it was all old news. No, neither of those factors handed Jones a fighting chance - that happened on the basis of accusations that cannot be substantiated and which show no pattern of behavior or continuation of behavior. The 'get out the vote' drive stood no chance of working without it - it was a special election and turnout for those is notoriously low.

He didn't lose because of his political views - he lost because of the political hit job that attacked through unsubstantiated accusations. You want to pretend that anything other than those accusations had the potential to cause the upset, that's your prerogative - but it's nonsense from a political and statistical POV.

Look at the numbers, Teal. Jones took 96% of the African American vote - largely due to a massive "turn-out the vote" by Democrats and a targeted ad campaign aimed at African Americans. He won by about 20K votes (last I saw). Without that vote, Moore would have won. Without the accusations, Moore would have won. Multiple factors came together to give Jones the win. Any ONE of them would have shifted the tide. To lay the entire thing at the accusations is simply not rational. It was one of many factors that could have sunk Jones and given Moore the win.

Your logic escapes me. Yes - without the accusations, Moore would have won. The same is true WITH the accusations and without the other factors.

At this point - I'm repeating myself (again), so I'll bow out. Last word is yours - if you want it.

[JimL]

Look at the numbers, Teal. Jones took 96% of the African American vote - largely due to a massive "turn-out the vote" by Democrats and a targeted ad campaign aimed at African Americans. He won by about 20K votes (last I saw). Without that vote, Moore would have won. Without the accusations, Moore would have won. Multiple factors came together to give Jones the win. Any ONE of them would have shifted the tide. To lay the entire thing at the accusations is simply not rational. It was one of many factors that could have sunk Jones and given Moore the win.

Your logic escapes me. Yes - without the accusations, Moore would have won. The same is true WITH the accusations and without the other factors.

At this point - I'm repeating myself (again), so I'll bow out. Last word is yours - if you want it.

I think that even the people of Alabama, one of the reddest of red states, are waking up to the lie that is personified by Trump and the republican party. They, Trump being their leader, proclaim to be out to help the middle class and the poor. That was his campaign. Then as soon as they're in office they set right to work at trying to throw 20 million people off of healthcare, failing that, they are now about to pass a tax cut for the wealthy that will give practically no relief to the middle class or the poor, but will be of huge benefit to the wealthy like Trump and the other oligarchs he surrounded himself with. And that will also throw 13 million people off of healthcare and increase the debt, that they're always ranting about when they're not in power, by about 1.5 trillion.

[One Bad Pig]

I think that even the people of Alabama, one of the reddest of red states, are waking up to the lie that is personified by Trump and the republican party. They, Trump being their leader, proclaim to be out to help the middle class and the poor. That was his campaign. Then as soon as they're in office they set right to work at trying to throw 20 million people off of healthcare, failing that, they are now about to pass a tax cut for the wealthy that will give practically no relief to the middle class or the poor, but will be of huge benefit to the wealthy like Trump and the other oligarchs he surrounded himself with. And that will also throw 13 million people off of healthcare and increase the debt, that they're always ranting about when they're not in power, by about 1.5 trillion.

How do you square your opinion with the fact that Moore was cruising to victory with a considerable lead until the 40-year-old allegations surfaced? It's sort of blindingly obvious what tanked his campaign, and it ain't what you think.

[JimL]

How do you square your opinion with the fact that Moore was cruising to victory with a considerable lead until the 40-year-old allegations surfaced? It's sort of blindingly obvious what tanked his campaign, and it ain't what you think.

How do you know that Moore was cruising to victory? The polls?

[One Bad Pig]

How do you know that Moore was cruising to victory? The polls?

The same things you trumpet when they're even narrowly in your favor? Yes.

[JimL]

The same things you trumpet when they're even narrowly in your favor? Yes.

Well you're wrong, the race was tight all the way back in September, long before the accusations came out. The polls had it between 3% and 5% in favor of Moore. Moore was hardly cruising, it's Alabama, he should have been up by 20%. So my point stands, Alabamians, it would seem, are awakening to the Trump/Republican scam.

[carpedm9587]

I think that even the people of Alabama, one of the reddest of red states, are waking up to the lie that is personified by Trump and the republican party. They, Trump being their leader, proclaim to be out to help the middle class and the poor. That was his campaign. Then as soon as they're in office they set right to work at trying to throw 20 million people off of healthcare, failing that, they are now about to pass a tax cut for the wealthy that will give practically no relief to the middle class or the poor, but will be of huge benefit to the wealthy like Trump and the other oligarchs he surrounded himself with. And that will also throw 13 million people off of healthcare and increase the debt, that they're always ranting about when they're not in power, by about 1.5 trillion.

Trump did what all politicians do, in my experience: promise the world.

This is why there is a difference between campaigning and governing. Most of what he promised he had no hope of actually accomplishing - and I suspect (but cannot prove) he knew that. But the on-liners were good for rally's, and got him the media attention he was looking for.

For the rest - I think there is a lot of political dysfunction going on now - largely due to the my-way-or-the-highway attitude in both our electorate and (as a result) our governing bodies. The ACA was never well constructed - and very much needed work to fix its shortcomings. But the right dug in its heals on "repeal" and the left dug in its heals on "maintain," so nobody spent time working on what needed to be done. Meanwhile, the act HAD elements that were advantageous to many (e.g., pre-existing conditions, creating a larger pool of participants, etc.). Those had enough time to take root in the public psyche, so their removal is going to negatively impact many. The congressional Republicans kind of painted themselves into a corner. They are doing the same thing with the tax bill.

As I have said several times - we need to be willing to accept pain for the next few years, and let Mr. Trump and the Republican Congress rips things people care about apart. It will rally the left in significant numbers, and cause a swing of the levers of government back to the center.

Then - if it swings too far to the left (as it did in 2008), I'll be out advocating for more success by Republicans to bring things back to center. Both parties had good ideas, and some truly awful ones. Historically - we have functioned better as a nation when the two sides found common ground and sought out reasonable compromises. It is my hope we will return to that kind of common sense governing.

For those interested in such things, you might want to look into www.nolabels.com. Very interesting group with priorities I suspect we could all line up behind.

[carpedm9587]

Well you're wrong, the race was tight all the way back in September, long before the accusations came out. The polls had it between 3% and 5% in favor of Moore. Moore was hardly cruising, it's Alabama, he should have been up by 20%. So my point stands, Alabamians, it would seem, are awakening to the Trump/Republican scam.

There were not a lot of polls in Alabama before November, when things got seriously interesting in the race. You can see that in the aggregation numbers here: https://www.realclearpolitics.com/ep...ones-6271.html. Before November, Moore had an aggregate 6 point lead that wasn't varying that much month-to-month. Six points is pretty narrow for Alabama, which has a history of Republican blow outs.

There is no doubt that the polls narrowed considerably with the allegations. What we cannto tell from the polling numbers, is whether they would likewise have narrowed with the incredible turn-out in African American votes. The bottom line is that the race was VERY close - and there does not seem to be adequate evidence to attribute that win to any one thing. Indeed, it was Moore's race to lose - and any of several factors could have swung the 20,0000+ votes that were the difference. The accusations were certainly one of those things.

But we're somewhat Monday-morning-quarterbacking the election. It has happened - and it's done. Jones is the Senator from Alabama until 2020. Then we'll see what happens.

[Teallaura]

I don't see a difference between a 30 year old dating a teenager with parental consent and without it, no. I think both are weird. Maybe weirder that parents would offer consent, to be honest. Who does that? Things might have been different in Alabama back in the 70s compared to the rest of the US, but they weren't THAT different.

But had it merely been an issue where he was accused of something that he did that was creepy yet legal, people might have been able to brush that off, I suppose (I don't know if I would have). The allegations of assault (9 in total), with a back story that he didn't deny, gave more than enough credence to think that yeah, there was likely something more going on. I mean, come on....nine allegations, and independent witnesses that he was cruising the mall for teenagers? You honestly don't think there was any substance to any of that? From a 1 Thessalonians 5 point of view, it's the appearance of evil that did him in. He put himself in circumstances where these allegations had grounds for looking truthful, and again, if I were the voting type, I'd definitely write someone else in.

There were TWO allegations of assault - not nine. The 'independent witness' was the one that thought Moore had been banned - but no one else back up that story, including the mall manager.

There's no substance at all in the mall allegations. The two assault allegations are anything but credible. The only credible allegations aren't illegal, immoral and were done with the consent of the parents (which makes the two assault allegations even more suspect).

Would it have mattered to me in the primary? Maybe. I don't like it. But I like pandering to those who use dirty tactics far less.

[Teallaura]

As I understood it, Jones wasn't much of an opponent. You're saying that had the full body of the Republican party put their focus on some other candidate, that candidate would have no chance? What's the point of a write-in then? Why not ban write-ins altogether if they're so ineffectual?

Write ins are virtually useless to the major parties. They exist primarily for independents and cases where the parties need to replace a candidate (withdrawal or death) and can't. Running a write in campaign is incredibly expensive - you have to have a lot of name recognition and you have to change voter behavior so you have to run a lot harder than the major party candidates and generally without a fraction of the funds.

There are cases of write in winners - but they are the exception, not the rule.

[Teallaura]

Look at the numbers, Teal. Jones took 96% of the African American vote - largely due to a massive "turn-out the vote" by Democrats and a targeted ad campaign aimed at African Americans. He won by about 20K votes (last I saw). Without that vote, Moore would have won. Without the accusations, Moore would have won. Multiple factors came together to give Jones the win. Any ONE of them would have shifted the tide. To lay the entire thing at the accusations is simply not rational. It was one of many factors that could have sunk Jones and given Moore the win.

Your logic escapes me. Yes - without the accusations, Moore would have won. The same is true WITH the accusations and without the other factors.

At this point - I'm repeating myself (again), so I'll bow out. Last word is yours - if you want it.

Turn out was directly affected by the accusations - you keep acting as if they had no effect on turnout which is nonsense. We had massive turnout on a special election and a Democrat who refused to admit in his ads that he was a democrat. The 'get out the vote' thing wouldn't have had that kind of traction without blood in the water.

[Teallaura]

Well you're wrong, the race was tight all the way back in September, long before the accusations came out. The polls had it between 3% and 5% in favor of Moore. Moore was hardly cruising, it's Alabama, he should have been up by 20%. So my point stands, Alabamians, it would seem, are awakening to the Trump/Republican scam.

Um, in September, Moore was running against Strange.

[JimL]

Trump did what all politicians do, in my experience: promise the world.

This is why there is a difference between campaigning and governing. Most of what he promised he had no hope of actually accomplishing - and I suspect (but cannot prove) he knew that. But the on-liners were good for rally's, and got him the media attention he was looking for.

Most of what Trump promised he had no intention of accomplishing. That's the difference between Trump and well meaning politicians, he's naught but a con man. And yes there are many pols whose intentions match their promises even if they aren't able to follow through on them. Trump, in fashion with the republican party that he now owns, had no such intentions. His intentions were to enrich himself and his oligarch friends, many of whom he gave positions in his administration.

For the rest - I think there is a lot of political dysfunction going on now - largely due to the my-way-or-the-highway attitude in both our electorate and (as a result) our governing bodies. The ACA was never well constructed - and very much needed work to fix its shortcomings. But the right dug in its heals on "repeal" and the left dug in its heals on "maintain," so nobody spent time working on what needed to be done. Meanwhile, the act HAD elements that were advantageous to many (e.g., pre-existing conditions, creating a larger pool of participants, etc.). Those had enough time to take root in the public psyche, so their removal is going to negatively impact many. The congressional Republicans kind of painted themselves into a corner. They are doing the same thing with the tax bill.

You're confusing democrats with republicans, you're trying to be fair, but you're not. It isn't Democrats who have the my way or the highway attitude. They worked with the republicans on the ACA for a long time and the republicans were not going to vote for it no matter what. It still isn't the legislation that the Democrats would have prefered, but what they got does need fixing and democrats have been only too willing to work on those fixes with republicans. But like I said, republicans don't want to fix anything, they want to be rid of it, because it's their way or the highway. And you're right, they're doing the same thing with the tax bill. Theres been no hearings, no Democrat input at all. So both parties are not guilty in the same way, republicans are corrupt as a party, they're owned by the wealthy doners, and they're going to do what their doners tell them to do regardless of what they sell to their naive middle class constituents.

As I have said several times - we need to be willing to accept pain for the next few years, and let Mr. Trump and the Republican Congress rips things people care about apart. It will rally the left in significant numbers, and cause a swing of the levers of government back to the center.

Well, hopefully we can do better than that, the republican electorate just need wake up and let their representatives know that they are on to them.

Then - if it swings too far to the left (as it did in 2008), I'll be out advocating for more success by Republicans to bring things back to center. Both parties had good ideas, and some truly awful ones. Historically - we have functioned better as a nation when the two sides found common ground and sought out reasonable compromises. It is my hope we will return to that kind of common sense governing.

Again, republicans don't, and have no intention of, compromising on anything.

For those interested in such things, you might want to look into www.nolabels.com. Very interesting group with priorities I suspect we could all line up behind.

Thanks, I'm familiar with them, and I think we may need to go in that direction. This two party system is to tribal. More and more people are becoming independents and i think thats a good thing because the other party, i.e the republican party is satan.

[JimL]

Turn out was directly affected by the accusations - you keep acting as if they had no effect on turnout which is nonsense. We had massive turnout on a special election and a Democrat who refused to admit in his ads that he was a democrat. The 'get out the vote' thing wouldn't have had that kind of traction without blood in the water.

You don't know that. The black vote was larger than it was for Obamas general election bid, and they weren't just coming out against Moore, they were coming out against Trump.