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Should Al Franken Resign?

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  • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    You're the orange?

    Hmmm... only here would that sentence even make sense...


    (where IS that emoji with someone laughing so hard they're crying...?)
    Bill, a.k.a. Miley Cyrus, is Tweb's resident Annoying Orange



    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
    "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

    Comment


    • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
      Bill, a.k.a. Miley Cyrus, is Tweb's resident Annoying Orange


      [ATTACH=CONFIG]25421[/ATTACH]
      That image is truly terrifying...
      The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

      I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

      Comment


      • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
        That image is truly terrifying...
        What's worse is the resemblance to the actual person!
        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
          That image is truly terrifying...
          That they made a TV based upon him is what is scary

          I'm always still in trouble again

          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

          Comment


          • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
            Your accounting of the Salem witch trials does not align with my understanding. While it is true that the number of actual deaths has been greatly overblown, there were, AFAIK, MANY convictions - for a crime that is simply ludicrous (i.e., being a witch). Where is your information about this coming from?

            Meanwhile, I'm not sure that your description qualifies as a "witch hunt." The term has the connotation of accusing innocent people on spurious evidence. It is not clear that many (most?) of these people are or are not innocent - and it is not clear we could EVER have much more than he-said/she-said for many of them. I am concerned that this new "enlightenment" could be turned into a weapon for eliminating anyone we do not like - so I think we need to be vigilant. But I'm not seeing any clear signs that this is happening, at this point.
            Salem had 21 executions and only a few more convictions. It was too many - only one valid case and that wasn't even convicted (she pled guilty and became a witness). There were a number of confessions that were never sentenced - only those who professed innocence were actually executed. The accused were so numerous that they were running out of jail space - several of those died awaiting trial.

            In the Inquisition, the majority of cases were heresy, not witchcraft. Of the witchcraft cases, church courts acquitted most.

            It's not clear that most are not innocent - there's not so much as a single recent conviction. The case with Moore was nothing but two accusations from 38 - 40 years ago - none of the offered supporting evidence panned out at all.

            And now we have one suicide - how many people have to be penalized without trial to make it a witch hunt? In my opinion, we're past that point.
            "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

            "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

            My Personal Blog

            My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

            Quill Sword

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
              Salem had 21 executions and only a few more convictions. It was too many - only one valid case and that wasn't even convicted (she pled guilty and became a witness). There were a number of confessions that were never sentenced - only those who professed innocence were actually executed. The accused were so numerous that they were running out of jail space - several of those died awaiting trial.

              In the Inquisition, the majority of cases were heresy, not witchcraft. Of the witchcraft cases, church courts acquitted most.

              It's not clear that most are not innocent - there's not so much as a single recent conviction. The case with Moore was nothing but two accusations from 38 - 40 years ago - none of the offered supporting evidence panned out at all.

              And now we have one suicide - how many people have to be penalized without trial to make it a witch hunt? In my opinion, we're past that point.
              I frankly do not know of someone that has been "penalized" by the accusations. They have, as far as I know, voluntarily given up their positions before ethics investigations (many of which were under way) were completed. Those were personal choices. Moore lost his bid for his seat, and that was a political outcome. It is not a "penalty" to fail to achieve your goal. Most of the debrief's I've read since the election suggest that there was more than one issue at play, including a strong turnout from the African American population fearing a "return" to racial issues of yore, a strong write-in campaign, and Moore's own extreme views on Constitution and law. The accusations were just part of the overall picture. Frankly, even setting the molestation accusations aside, I think Moore was a despicable candidate and I'm glad he's out of the running.

              It is also not clear to me what the alternative is. If these people have indeed been wronged - they have a right to speak out. That we are finally seeing a climate where they are being heard more than they are being ridiculed and dismissed (not that they are not facing a great doeal of that as well) is, IMO, a good thing.

              But I also think we have to remain vigilant that this does not become a political tool for "taking people down" who are actually innocent. I'm frankly not sure HOW we do that. I'm just concerned about it.
              The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

              I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

              Comment


              • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                I frankly do not know of someone that has been "penalized" by the accusations. They have, as far as I know, voluntarily given up their positions before ethics investigations (many of which were under way) were completed. Those were personal choices. Moore lost his bid for his seat, and that was a political outcome. It is not a "penalty" to fail to achieve your goal. Most of the debrief's I've read since the election suggest that there was more than one issue at play, including a strong turnout from the African American population fearing a "return" to racial issues of yore, a strong write-in campaign, and Moore's own extreme views on Constitution and law. The accusations were just part of the overall picture. Frankly, even setting the molestation accusations aside, I think Moore was a despicable candidate and I'm glad he's out of the running.

                It is also not clear to me what the alternative is. If these people have indeed been wronged - they have a right to speak out. That we are finally seeing a climate where they are being heard more than they are being ridiculed and dismissed (not that they are not facing a great doeal of that as well) is, IMO, a good thing.

                But I also think we have to remain vigilant that this does not become a political tool for "taking people down" who are actually innocent. I'm frankly not sure HOW we do that. I'm just concerned about it.
                A choice with a gun to your head isn't really a choice.

                And Moore's loss is directly attributable to the accusations - as you know perfectly well.

                Don't justify the wrong means to reach just outcomes. The result is never justice.
                "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                My Personal Blog

                My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                Quill Sword

                Comment


                • And Moore's loss is directly attributable to the accusations - as you know perfectly well.
                  The black vote, 93% of black men and 98% of black women voted for Jones.

                  That quip he made about removing all ammendments after the 10th (which includes the one abolishing slavery and giving women the right to vote) cost him. It made him too much a "The South Shall Rise Again" kind of guy.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                    The black vote, 93% of black men and 98% of black women voted for Jones.

                    That quip he made about removing all ammendments after the 10th (which includes the one abolishing slavery and giving women the right to vote) cost him. It made him too much a "The South Shall Rise Again" kind of guy.
                    Jones was trailing massively before the accusations. Turnout was 25% - that's tiny for an election but massive for a special election. No accusations, no increased turnout, no upset - rocket science, this is not.
                    "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                    "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                    My Personal Blog

                    My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                    Quill Sword

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                      That they made a TV based upon him is what is scary
                      That most of the shows on the network are nearly is bad is even more terrifying.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                        The black vote, 93% of black men and 98% of black women voted for Jones.

                        That quip he made about removing all ammendments after the 10th (which includes the one abolishing slavery and giving women the right to vote) cost him. It made him too much a "The South Shall Rise Again" kind of guy.
                        The interesting thing is, the removal of the amendments abolishing slavery or giving women the right to vote would do essentially nothing. Why? Because bringing back slavery or restricting the vote to men are such unpopular positions that no one would actually enact those policies even if it were legal to do so. Those amendments have so little practical effect they're essentially symbolic at this point.

                        Though as I said before, it's a bit amusing that the removal of the 17th Amendment would amusingly have almost certainly prevented Roy Moore from getting his nomination.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                          A choice with a gun to your head isn't really a choice.
                          I can't see I see a "gun to the head" in this scenario.

                          Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                          And Moore's loss is directly attributable to the accusations - as you know perfectly well.
                          No, Teal, I don't. It contributed, yes. But any number of the factors would have made a difference. If Moore had not frightened the black population as he did, he likely would have won. If the accusations weren't made, he likely would have won. If he had no so badly compromised his respect for the Constitution, he likely would have won. The difference was only a matter of 20,000 votes, out of over a million cast. So when you have at least three different factors, any one of which could have turned the tide - pinning it on one thing just does not seem rational to me.

                          This kind of "what would have happened" speculation always has me There is no way to establish the specific caouse of Moore's loss, Trump's win, Virginia's shift, etc. There are simply too many factors at play.

                          Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                          Don't justify the wrong means to reach just outcomes. The result is never justice.
                          I frankly do not see a "wrong means" here. Women came forward with accusations, as they did for many others. I have no way of knowing who is telling me the truth. Much as I find Moore reprehensible, I am not aware of him being deceitful (unlike Trump), so I have no reason to call his denials into question. Likewise, I have no adequate reason to dismiss his accusers (though I recognize that many or most here disagree).

                          I am not seeing an injustice - just a political reality, much of which Moore created for himself.
                          The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                          I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                            The black vote, 93% of black men and 98% of black women voted for Jones.

                            That quip he made about removing all ammendments after the 10th (which includes the one abolishing slavery and giving women the right to vote) cost him. It made him too much a "The South Shall Rise Again" kind of guy.
                            As did the comment about how great we were back during slavery, his clear antipathy for the LGBTQ community. You just cannot tick off that many people and expect to be stunningly successful.

                            Don't get me wrong - I truly expected Jones to lose. I was flabbergasted to find that a deep red, deep south state like Alabama would elect a Democrat. But apparently the massive "turn out the vote" effort aimed at the African American community had substantial effect. I suspect the increasing dissatisfaction with Trump in Alabama was also a factor.

                            A lot of factors...
                            The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                            I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Terraceth View Post
                              The interesting thing is, the removal of the amendments abolishing slavery or giving women the right to vote would do essentially nothing. Why? Because bringing back slavery or restricting the vote to men are such unpopular positions that no one would actually enact those policies even if it were legal to do so. Those amendments have so little practical effect they're essentially symbolic at this point.

                              Though as I said before, it's a bit amusing that the removal of the 17th Amendment would amusingly have almost certainly prevented Roy Moore from getting his nomination.
                              Back when I was in college and took a few law classes we had a debate over which amendment was the least relevant in the late 20th cent. I argued for the 3rd Amendment which prohibiting the quartering of troops in private homes without the consent of the owner. I don't think that issue has come up before the court.

                              I'm always still in trouble again

                              "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                              "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                              "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                                I can't see I see a "gun to the head" in this scenario.
                                Then you're blind - and evidently deliberately.



                                No, Teal, I don't. It contributed, yes. But any number of the factors would have made a difference. If Moore had not frightened the black population as he did, he likely would have won. If the accusations weren't made, he likely would have won. If he had no so badly compromised his respect for the Constitution, he likely would have won. The difference was only a matter of 20,000 votes, out of over a million cast. So when you have at least three different factors, any one of which could have turned the tide - pinning it on one thing just does not seem rational to me.

                                This kind of "what would have happened" speculation always has me There is no way to establish the specific caouse of Moore's loss, Trump's win, Virginia's shift, etc. There are simply too many factors at play.
                                Baloney - this is self-serving and you know it.

                                I frankly do not see a "wrong means" here. Women came forward with accusations, as they did for many others. I have no way of knowing who is telling me the truth. Much as I find Moore reprehensible, I am not aware of him being deceitful (unlike Trump), so I have no reason to call his denials into question. Likewise, I have no adequate reason to dismiss his accusers (though I recognize that many or most here disagree).

                                I am not seeing an injustice - just a political reality, much of which Moore created for himself.
                                Again, self-serving - you got what you wanted by unfair means and you know it - this is just an attempt to self justify. It's not working on anyone besides yourself - and I doubt it would work on you if you really thought about it.
                                "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                                "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                                My Personal Blog

                                My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                                Quill Sword

                                Comment

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