Originally posted by carpedm9587
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Should Al Franken Resign?
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I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostA fair question. My position on Moore is mixed. As to the accusations themselves, I still cannot claim to know what happened, so I am leery about passing judgment on his actions. The sheer number of people stepping forward, coupled with the comments of others who knew him from that period and acknowledge his tendency to date teenagers, coupled with his very poor performance on Hannity raise serious questions for me, but I still cannot claim to know. I wasn't there, and we have another he/she said situation. For the accusations, I have to suspend judgment until an investigation is had.
But his attack of the women accusing him I find unacceptable. I also find his position on religion and politics, in defiance of Article VI of the constitution, unacceptable in a politician, especially one with a legal background. For those reasons, I do not think Moore should be running for, or elected to, office. For the record, I felt the same way about both Trump and Clinton when they used the same strategy of publicly attacking their accusers.
But I'm not sure why you pretend the evidence even matters when we have Al Franken literally caught in the act, and you're saying that we shouldn't jump to conclusions.
So now I'm curious: you express a distaste for "attacking the accusers", but if the accusations are false then why shouldn't the accusers be attacked? If we were to look at false accusations as an attack in their own right then attacking the accusers in return would seem to be a prudent defense. I suppose you might think it creates an atmosphere where legitimate victims will be afraid to come forward, but I think, rather, the lesson is that you shouldn't come forward unless you can actually prove your case. Perhaps victims could start by getting their case on record immediately instead of waiting years or decades to try and drop an unprovable bombshell on a high-profile figure.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostCorrect me if I wrong but weren't you earlier chiding others for basing their reactions to Trump, Moore, Franken et al. on their political affiliations, yet here you are doing the same and seeking to justify it.
On the political side, I abhor Trump for character reasons, find Moore unsuited to office for constitutional issues, am aligned with many (but not all) of Clinton's political stands, and I find I am very aligned with a lot of Franken's political positions.
The two things are not conflated in my mind - and my response to the sexual allegations has nothing to do with my response to the political issues.Last edited by carpedm9587; 11-20-2017, 01:03 PM.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostSo now I'm curious: you express a distaste for "attacking the accusers", but if the accusations are false then why shouldn't the accusers be attacked?
Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostIf we were to look at false accusations as an attack in their own right then attacking the accusers in return would seem to be a prudent defense. I suppose you might think it creates an atmosphere where legitimate victims will be afraid to come forward, but I think, rather, the lesson is that you shouldn't come forward unless you can actually prove your case. Perhaps victims could start by getting their case on record immediately instead of waiting years or decades to try and drop an unprovable bombshell on a high-profile figure.
To simply expect a victim to set aside fear and "come out" is a form of blaming the victim, IMO.
I recognize this is a complex issue. False accusations are harmful. So too are true accusations that are not believed. The rush, today, to conclude who is lying and who is telling the truth when the fact is, we simply do not know - is potentially damaging to either party.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostIt is the action I would expect of a gentleman.
franken.jpg
How gentlemanly is that?The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostLike this?
[ATTACH=CONFIG]24988[/ATTACH]
How gentlemanly is that?
Now you can suspect me of being biased because I am left of center and Franken is clearly left. You can accuse me of being dishonest if you wish. That, of course, requires you to look into my heart and make a judgment. I know what is in my heart, and I know both of those things are not true. If you believe otherwise, so be it.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostMoore was a person of power at that time. That individual women would be hesitant to step forward knowing they were facing a powerful man in the south in the 70s is not a stretch.Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom
Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostLike this?
[ATTACH=CONFIG]24988[/ATTACH]
How gentlemanly is that?Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostA deputy DA?
To a mouse - a house cat looks powerful. To a man, it does not.Last edited by carpedm9587; 11-20-2017, 02:02 PM.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostAhh... no. My responses to Moore, Trump, Clinton, and Franken with respect to their handling of accusations of sexual inappropriateness are separate from my reaction to them for political issues. All four men have been accused and (so far) no compelling evidence has been shown for any of the accusations, so I am forced to withhold judgment on those issues. Of the four accused, three have attacked their accusers (Moore, Trump, Clinton) which I find unacceptable. One has not (Franken), which I applaud. Three have issued no form of apology (Trump, Clinton, Moore), and one has (Franken). So for the one thing Franken apologized for (the picture) I am secure drawing the conclusion that he acted inappropriately.
On the political side, I abhor Trump for character reasons, find Moore unsuited to office for constitutional issues, am aligned with many (but not all) of Clinton's political stands, and I find I am very aligned with a lot of Franken's political positions.
The two things are not conflated in my mind - and my response to the sexual allegations has nothing to do with my response to the political issues.
Again, this makes me wonder why the MSM isn't seeking out everybody who was there looking for eyewitnesses.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostIt isn't that Franken took the high road here. The picture of him leering at the camera as he groped Tweeden as she slept made it all but impossible for him to attack her as being a liar -- although he still does that in a somewhat polite way about the thing where no damning photographs exist.
Again, this makes me wonder why the MSM isn't seeking out everybody who was there looking for eyewitnesses.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostI am not sure how many times I need to say this: the picture shows an unacceptable, condescending, disrespectful action.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostYes, nothing a gentleman would do. For you to assume he'd act "gentlemanly" with regards to women in other situations is just really stretching it.
For that I need look no further than TWeb. 11 years ago, I was a member and engaged in a lot of exchanges here. I was inappropriate in more than one instance. Today I return and find myself in a different place.
So who am I to judge someone else on the basis of actions 11, 30, or 40 years ago? I have no opinion concerning Moore 40 years ago - I wasn't there. I DO have an opinion about what he is doing and saying today. Same for Trump. Same for Clinton.Last edited by carpedm9587; 11-20-2017, 02:19 PM.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostI look at myself and realize that I have changed significantly in 11 years. I extend the benefit of the doubt to others that they might as well.
“And, ‘I give the pills to Lesley Stahl. Then, when Lesley's passed out, I take her to the closet and rape her.’ Or, ‘That’s why you never see Lesley until February.’ Or, ‘When she passes out, I put her in various positions and take pictures of her.’”
Is this the "gentleman" you so nobly defend?The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostSo, Moore --- that was 30-40 years ago...... no benefit of the doubt there, though. And how bout this...
The only judgment I pass on Moore is his treatment of the women accusing him - attacking them is unacceptable, IMO.
Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post“And, ‘I give the pills to Lesley Stahl. Then, when Lesley's passed out, I take her to the closet and rape her.’ Or, ‘That’s why you never see Lesley until February.’ Or, ‘When she passes out, I put her in various positions and take pictures of her.’”
Is this the "gentleman" you so nobly defend?
I also do not think he should summarily resign or be dismissed from his post. I am willing to allow for the possibility that people change - and to let the political process unwind. So if people seriously want him out, recall him. If the Senate feels strongly about it, initiate ouster proceedings. I am willing to let the political and judicial system play out without coming to summary judgment. I do not know what is in the man's heart today - I only know he was a cad 11 years ago.
For the record, if Hitler helped a little old lady across the road - I would describe the action as gentlemanly. It does not mean I forgive or dismiss all of his attrocities, nor does it mean I think he is a "gentleman," it means exactly what it says: that act is gentlemanly.Last edited by carpedm9587; 11-20-2017, 02:36 PM.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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