Should Al Franken Resign?

[Cow Poke]

I am not actually "defending" anyone....

Well, yeah, you really are, you're just not owning up to it.

For the record, if Hitler helped a little old lady across the road - I would describe the action as gentlemanly.

Even if she claimed he tried to push his tongue down her throat, then claimed he didn't remember it that way?

[carpedm9587]

Well, yeah, you really are, you're just not owning up to it.

Even if she claimed he tried to push his tongue down her throat, then claimed he didn't remember it that way?

Umm.. helping a little old lady while sexually assaulting them is not "gentlemanly." And I know I am in the land of hyperbole when "down her throat" keeps coming up. Has anyone here ever actually kissed, including tongue? Getting the tongue past the teeth is a trick - never mind down the throat - which is a virtual impossibility.

I think we've reached the point where what people "think" I am saying is more important than what I am actually saying. I'm not sure there is any way to proceed from that point - so I will leave you to your assessments of me and go on to other discussions.

If there is a point you would truly like me to respond to, please PM me. I'm not sure when/if I'll return to this thread.

[Cow Poke]

So, WHILE in office....

(CNN)A woman says Sen. Al Franken inappropriately touched her in 2010, telling CNN that he grabbed her buttocks while taking a photo at the Minnesota State Fair.
It is the first allegation of improper touching by Franken, who is a Democrat, while he was in office. It comes just days after Leeann Tweeden, a local radio news anchor in California, said that Franken forcibly kissed and groped her in 2006, when Franken was a comedian.

And she posted it on Facebook when it happened in 2010 - Al doesn't remember it that way.

[Mountain Man]

That Moore apparently has a different memory of what happened than these women is clear. That they knew one another and there was involvement is also clear. To treat women respectfully in such a situation, and acknowledge the possibility that people may walk away from the same encounter with different memories is not demanding over-much. It is the action I would expect of a gentleman. Trump, Moore, and Clinton have shown themselves to be nothing of the kind, IMO.



Moore was a person of power at that time. That individual women would be hesitant to step forward knowing they were facing a powerful man in the south in the 70s is not a stretch. The 2010's is a different time, and we are in the midst of an explosion of people "stepping forward." That women would find safety in numbers and a different climate is not unreasonable.

To simply expect a victim to set aside fear and "come out" is a form of blaming the victim, IMO.

I recognize this is a complex issue. False accusations are harmful. So too are true accusations that are not believed. The rush, today, to conclude who is lying and who is telling the truth when the fact is, we simply do not know - is potentially damaging to either party.

Moore doesn't have a "different memory" of what happened. He hasn't resorted to an Al Franken-style deflection. Rather, Moore has no memory of the specific accusations in question and has consistently said that they never happened, and in his defense, there is no credible evidence, and certainly no verifiable evidence, that they ever did.

Compare this to the accusations against Franken which name specific times, dates, and places, were immediately reported to other people, and which are corroborated by photographic evidence, one a picture showing Franken and the victim together, and the other showing him literally caught in the act groping the victim while she was asleep! Yes, Franken gave a calculated, cold-hearted apology, but where was that apology before the picture became public? You would think a self-proclaimed champion of women's rights would have taken the time to clean his own house first before demanding it of others. Does saying, "I'm sorry I got caught," really count?

Any attempt to create moral equivalence here is absurd.

As for how to handle these sorts of things, if the victims have a legitimate complaint and evidence to support their case then they should quietly take it to the police and not hold a press conference. It seems like the louder they shout in public, the weaker their case is. My thinking is that if they can't support their case with credible facts and evidence -- and they really should talk to a competent lawyer first and not a con-artist like Allred -- then it's probably best to just keep quiet because it's almost certain that nothing good will come of it. This is why it's imperative that any victim of sexual assault should report it immediately while the evidence is fresh and witnesses can still be found. Otherwise, the chances of them getting justice decrease significantly. Perhaps this sounds callous, but it's the truth.

[Sparko]

I look at myself and realize that I have changed significantly in 11 years. I extend the benefit of the doubt to others that they might as well.

For that I need look no further than TWeb. 11 years ago, I was a member and engaged in a lot of exchanges here. I was inappropriate in more than one instance. Today I return and find myself in a different place.

So who am I to judge someone else on the basis of actions 11, 30, or 40 years ago? I have no opinion concerning Moore 40 years ago - I wasn't there. I DO have an opinion about what he is doing and saying today. Same for Trump. Same for Clinton.

sure people can change. But usually when they do, they come out and say so. They don't act like nothing ever happened and only apologize when caught in the act. From reading the news, Franken's actions are not a secret. he has always been a crass, sexist jerk, from the time he was a comedian. But if he changed when he became a senator, he never made a mention of it. He could have said "as many of you know I was a real sexist jerk before, but I apologize for that and now I am a supporter of women's rights" or similar. and said that before he was caught yet again in a compromising situation. Apologizing only when caught rings false.

I feel the same way with Trump and his crass words caught on the hot mike years ago.

[Mountain Man]

Apologizing only when caught rings false.

Even more so when he apologizes for the victim instead of for himself, i.e. "I'm sorry you felt violated" and "I'm sorry you remember things differently."

[rogue06]

So, WHILE in office....

(CNN)A woman says Sen. Al Franken inappropriately touched her in 2010, telling CNN that he grabbed her buttocks while taking a photo at the Minnesota State Fair.
It is the first allegation of improper touching by Franken, who is a Democrat, while he was in office. It comes just days after Leeann Tweeden, a local radio news anchor in California, said that Franken forcibly kissed and groped her in 2006, when Franken was a comedian.

And she posted it on Facebook when it happened in 2010 - Al doesn't remember it that way.

And immediately discussed it with both of her parents

[Mountain Man]

Then there's Franken's open confession in his memoir that he only apologizes when he thinks it's necessary to get votes.

[Cow Poke]

Even more so when he apologizes for the victim instead of for himself, i.e. "I'm sorry you felt violated" and "I'm sorry you remember things differently."

Exactly!

[Teallaura]

Yes

To a mouse - a house cat looks powerful. To a man, it does not.

To date, there are two accusations of actual misconduct both of which are more than 35 years old*. The supposed corroboration actually proved to support Moore's denial. The only evidence admitted to this kangaroo court at present is a signature that has already been refuted and a supposed ban that has also been refuted.

A Deputy DA was not that powerful in Alabama in the Seventies (seriously, just how many times have you guys seen Nightmare in Badham County?) but even assuming that she did fear the repercussions outing powerful men for sexual misconduct is hardly new - and Moore was elected twice to the Alabama Supreme Court. There were plenty of opportunities to make the allegations over the last several decades - but she waits until 30 days before the election?

I don't see why a man cannot defend himself against false accusations made outside of a court of law. Further, I haven't heard Moore himself 'bad mouth' her at all - he flat denies the allegation but didn't himself start attacking the accuser** that I've heard. Franken's hit squad has already been in action - where is the difference?

Personally, I see no reason at this point for either man to resign or step aside - presuming that both are innocent. If not, yes, standing down is the best option - but since only they know for sure and the last I looked we presume innocence, then the only valid calls now are for investigation.


*This is important for two reasons - the legal avenues are no longer available and, more importantly, sexual misconduct usually doesn't just stop - if true, we should expect corroborating accusations much later in time as well. Instead we get a number of former acquaintances who support Moore as being a perfect gentleman when they dated prior to his marriage. This does not fit the profile of a sexual deviant of the sort alleged and supports Moore's claim of innocence.

**Which is rare in and of itself. Trump's the only one I've seen recently doing it himself.

[Mountain Man]

Personally, I see no reason at this point for either man to resign or step aside - presuming that both are innocent.

I don't see how you can entertain the possibility that Franken could be innocent in light of that damning photograph.

[Adrift]

I don't see how you can entertain the possibility that Franken could be innocent in light of that damning photograph.

I don't think a bad comedian like Al Franken should be in the Senate, but I got a better understanding of the environment that the photo was taken in when I saw the photograph in the context of other pictures released from the same event. https://imgur.com/gallery/FWPtO

In those photos you can see Leann herself engaging in behavior that might raise eyebrows today, like kissing an airman in the audience, smacking a performers butt while he's playing guitar, wrapping her legs around Robin Williams, and the like. I don't think these photos necessarily redeem Franken, but they certainly put that one picture of him mock grabbing her into a different context, or at least, they did for me.

[alaskazimm]

I don't think a bad comedian like Al Franken should be in the Senate, but I got a better understanding of the environment that the photo was taken in when I saw the photograph in the context of other pictures released from the same event. https://imgur.com/gallery/FWPtO

In those photos you can see Leann herself engaging in behavior that might raise eyebrows today, like kissing an airman in the audience, smacking a performers butt while he's playing guitar, wrapping her legs around Robin Williams, and the like. I don't think these photos necessarily redeem Franken, but they certainly put that one picture of him mock grabbing her into a different context, or at least, they did for me.

I guess like studying the Bible, context matters. Thanks for bring this up!

[Cow Poke]

I don't think a bad comedian like Al Franken should be in the Senate, but I got a better understanding of the environment that the photo was taken in when I saw the photograph in the context of other pictures released from the same event. https://imgur.com/gallery/FWPtO

In those photos you can see Leann herself engaging in behavior that might raise eyebrows today, like kissing an airman in the audience, smacking a performers butt while he's playing guitar, wrapping her legs around Robin Williams, and the like. I don't think these photos necessarily redeem Franken, but they certainly put that one picture of him mock grabbing her into a different context, or at least, they did for me.

Are those photos during the performance for the military? Those are always a bit on the sexually suggestive side, due to the audience, and I think she even referred to that. Off stage, however, should be considered "real life", not performance.

[Adrift]

Are those photos during the performance for the military? Those are always a bit on the sexually suggestive side, due to the audience, and I think she even referred to that. Off stage, however, should be considered "real life", not performance.

Yep, if you read the text below the photos it actually says exactly that, "So is this okay? Not if she felt uncomfortable or did not want him to do it. She’s also sleeping so the dynamic was different- she wasn’t performing."

Again, does it redeem Franken, I don't think it necessarily does, but it does cast the whole situation in a different light (for me at least).