Should Al Franken Resign?

[Cow Poke]

TMI...

MOM!!! HE started it!

[One Bad Pig]

I agree with you about the nature of civil discourse these days being troubling but believe it or not it has been far worse. Look at some of the elections in the early 19th century where they were calling each other everything you can possibly think of -- and a few you couldn't. In fact nearly the whole century was pretty bare knuckles style campaigning.

We really ought to get back to getting out the vote by supplying free whisky.

[Starlight]

• Infrastructure
• Regulation of commonly held resources
• National defense
• Establishment of laws
• Enforcement of laws
• Education
• Speaking as a nation in international organizations and matters
• Supporting new initiatives with national benefits (until the free market takes over)
• Ensuring universal access to healthcare
• Safety net for those not otherwise cared for
• Research associated with decision-making related to above listed items
• Collection of taxes (to fund the above)

That's my quick, from the hip, list. If someone thinks something should be removed, I'd be interested in knowing 1) whether you think that is not actually a need and why and, 2) if it IS a need, how you think that need can be met if it is not done by government.

Here's an accurate list of what the New Zealand government (least corrupt government in the world) spends on (based on the 2013 budget data), for thoughts and comparison:

• Healthcare for all citizens, mostly free at point of use (all in-hospital treatment free, all specialist visits free, all drugs subsidized to $3 USD per prescription, family physician/GP visits are the main out of pocket cost at ~$15-$30 USD per visit) - 17.0% of total spending
• Education (preschool - significantly subsidized, primary - fully funded, secondary - fully funded, tertiary - significantly subsidized) - 15.1%
• Superannuation (per week payments to people over 65) - 12.5%
• Welfare (per week payments to single women with kids, people too sick to work, help with accommodation costs, disability assistance, unemployment benefits) - 11.14%
• Tax credits (mostly tax benefits for people with children), tax write-offs and tax department expenses - 8.2%
• Ministry of Business, Innovation, and Employment (a huge conglomeration of things ranging from: cheap rental housing for anyone who would be homeless - 0.8%, to immigration services - 0.2%, to international marketing of NZ as a tourist destination - 0.1%) - 5.6%
• Interest payments on the national debt, and other costs around servicing government finances - 5.2%
• Infrastructure - 4.5%
• Military - 3.3%
• Disaster recovery (specifically for a damaging set of recent earthquakes) - 2.8%
• Student loans (interest free loans, as long as they remain in the country, to students to cover tertiary course costs) for richer students and full funding for poorer students - 2.6%
• Police - 2%
• Courts - 1.9%
• Prisons, and parole costs - 1.6%
• Development aid for foreign nations - 0.5%
• All other minor government functions combined (Dozens of things relating to agriculture, environment, conservation, heritage protection, customs, statistics, parliament administrative services, spying, etc) - 6.1%

It would be interesting also to dig up what Denmark (the other equally least corrupt country in the world) spends on and compare lists.

[rogue06]

We really ought to get back to getting out the vote by supplying free whisky.

Need to move into the 21st cent.

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Although I could be bought for some nice brandy or a few margaritas.

[Mountain Man]

We really ought to get back to getting out the vote by supplying free whisky.

So the question is, are liquored up people more willing to vote liberal, or conservative?

[carpedm9587]

Here's an accurate list of what the New Zealand government (least corrupt government in the world) spends on (based on the 2013 budget data), for thoughts and comparison:

• Healthcare for all citizens, mostly free at point of use (all in-hospital treatment free, all specialist visits free, all drugs subsidized to $3 USD per prescription, family physician/GP visits are the main out of pocket cost at ~$15-$30 USD per visit) - 17.0% of total spending
• Education (preschool - significantly subsidized, primary - fully funded, secondary - fully funded, tertiary - significantly subsidized) - 15.1%
• Superannuation (per week payments to people over 65) - 12.5%
• Welfare (per week payments to single women with kids, people too sick to work, help with accommodation costs, disability assistance, unemployment benefits) - 11.14%
• Tax credits (mostly tax benefits for people with children), tax write-offs and tax department expenses - 8.2%
• Ministry of Business, Innovation, and Employment (a huge conglomeration of things ranging from: cheap rental housing for anyone who would be homeless - 0.8%, to immigration services - 0.2%, to international marketing of NZ as a tourist destination - 0.1%) - 5.6%
• Interest payments on the national debt, and other costs around servicing government finances - 5.2%
• Infrastructure - 4.5%
• Military - 3.3%
• Disaster recovery (specifically for a damaging set of recent earthquakes) - 2.8%
• Student loans (interest free loans, as long as they remain in the country, to students to cover tertiary course costs) for richer students and full funding for poorer students - 2.6%
• Police - 2%
• Courts - 1.9%
• Prisons, and parole costs - 1.6%
• Development aid for foreign nations - 0.5%
• All other minor government functions combined (Dozens of things relating to agriculture, environment, conservation, heritage protection, customs, statistics, parliament administrative services, spying, etc) - 6.1%

It would be interesting also to dig up what Denmark (the other equally least corrupt country in the world) spends on and compare lists.

Wow.

I wonder how much less corrupt OUR government would be without big money...?

[Sparko]

Wow.

I wonder how much less corrupt OUR government would be without big money...?

NZ has Gandalf and Smaug to keep them in line.

[Bill the Cat]

It would be interesting also to dig up what Denmark (the other equally least corrupt country in the world) spends on and compare lists.

How about a comparable size and population comparison to the US?

[Bill the Cat]

Wow.

I wonder how much less corrupt OUR government would be without big money...?

Or without it being 37 times the size of NZ.

[Roy]

Okay, you lost me. You just shot down the entire case against Moore - I thought you were arguing that he was (probably) guilty?

no - I'm arguing that it's not been proven either way, because all we have is witness testimony, nothing concrete.

Um, not exactly. The persons are NOT in equal positions of access to the information in question. The mall manager would have greater knowledge of and access to mall policy than an individual store employee.

The question isn't about mall policy, it's about the status of one individual. I'd expect a mall manager to know about the process for banning some-one from the mall, but not necessarily know (or remember 40 years later) the names of everyone who had been banned. Whereas I would expect the person who requested a ban to know the identity of the bannee, but not the details of the banning policy. Not that this affects anything I've said in the slightest, because I'm not arguing anything about the situation beyond it being simply one person's recollection against another, and so unproven.

It's not he said/she said - it's he has cause to know and she does not. BOTH accounts can be true - but only his would matter.

Just because some-one is in a better position to know something doesn't mean there's anything besides "he said". If there is no evidence other than witness testimony, it is literally "he-said-she-said" and it comes down to which person (if any) you believe.

[Roy]

No, no, NO. If you don't have means to impeach either, you assume both are recounting truthfully - and since she did NOT have the access to mall policy that a mall manager would have had, his account is the one that matters. She could have been lied to by a guard wanting a date, she could be remembering wrong or she could simply have been told wrong - it doesn't MATTER.

"She could be remembering wrong"? Why no equivalent "he could be remembering wrong"?

[Cow Poke]

I think, absent something even remotely relevant, the whole Mall thing should be dismissed from consideration.

[carpedm9587]

Or without it being 37 times the size of NZ.

I do not see why "size" has to be a dominant factor in why a country is or is not corrupt. In my experience, money does that more than anything - and our government is riddled with big money.

[Cow Poke]

I do not see why "size" has to be a dominant factor in why a country is or is not corrupt. In my experience, money does that more than anything - and our government is riddled with big money.

The bigger an organization, the harder it is to have oversight and accountability.

Kinda like the "too big to fail" argument - this would be too big to manage.

[RumTumTugger]

MOM!!! HE started it!

I don't care who started it both of you stop it right now






to both of you it is good to see some comic relief in these threads just don't do it to often.