Should Al Franken Resign?

[Cow Poke]

He has acknowledged the inappropriateness of the image,

What other option was there?

stated that he remembers the other encounter differently and, since there is a difference of views, invited an investigation.

What could be gained from an investigation where it literally comes down to he said / she said?

So if be believes he did not do the other thing as accused, he should simply confess it anyway? That makes no sense to me.

There is plenty of other conduct in question - not just that one incident.

What really makes a difference, IMO, is that he has not stooped to attacking the woman in question, or belittling her in public.

He would be a fool to do that, given her credibility on the national stage.

I take no position on his guilt or innocence because I do not know.

But, you're reasonably certain that, at the very least, he was "mock groping" her breasts, yes? And that big goofy grin while doing it...

When I do not know, and there are two opposing viewpoints, I say, "let the process work itself out."

The hypocrisy here (not necessarily on your part) is that the liberals are calling for Moore to be thrown out on accusations from 35-40 years ago with no evidence, and don't seem very willing to "let the process work itself out". They want blood. In the case of Franken? They want forgiveness.

[Cow Poke]

So if this a reference to what I posted,

I was responding to Rogue.

can you point out the place where I "absolved" him? That was not my intent, so if I misspoke I'd like to correct it. I'm not finding it.

Are you "the liberals"?

[rogue06]

His comment was that he remembered the scenario differently, and he apologized for the image. At no point did he ridicule her, and he acknowledged her feelings about the situation were paramount. I was not there - so I am not in a position to judge a he-said, she-said situation. I would suggest none of us are.

Nobody said he ridiculed her so that's nothing but a red herring. Still, saying he remembered the scenario differently is just a polite way of calling her a liar.

And that makes Franken the first politician to say expedient things in political office?

It most certainly calls into question the veracity of any apologies that he offers since he is on record for admitting that the apology he offered for his bizarre obsession about enacting out a rape fantasy^[1] of his involving Leslie Stahl on Saturday Night Live (you really should read the accounts of those there who described him as being very insistent about the skit and kept returning to the idea) was nothing more than a calculated, steaming pile of B.S. designed to woo voters^[2].

And does his recognition that his new role required a new look at the situation necessary imply that he didn't mean the apology? And does that mean we can we likewise assume that, when Trump was found on tape bragging about sexually assaulting women, and then apologized for it, only to then dismiss it as "locker room talk," we can apply the same standard you are applying to Franken?

In my experience - these days people seem to defend those in their own political party - or aligned with their political views - and decry someone in the other party - even if it means taking inconsistent positions. It would be nice if we could be consistent.

Franken has been casting himself as a champion of women's rights who is repulsed by sexual harassment and has been very vocal about prosecuting those who commit sexual assault and other legislation

al-franken-1.jpg

Now we know it was all a sham and that he is a world class hypocrite and a sexual predator himself.

The point of all this is will the Democrats, who have been saying that just this sort of behavior is completely and unequivocally indefensible and those who act that way are unfit to hold office, show that this was more than just political theory, or will they walk the walk and put their money where their mouth is (sorry for the mixed metaphors).












1. He does seem to find rape a funny topic like when he told a "joke" about how Carl Reiner would let his friends gang rape his son Rob Reiner when the latter was a child during a comedic roast of Reiner (the same event where a photo has emerged of him grabbing Joy Behar's breast)

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2.

Despite his apology, Democratic Sen. Al Franken of Minnesota isn’t sorry for a making a rape joke about Lesley Stahl during the 1994-1995 season of “Saturday Night Live.”

The former comedian published a memoir-style book May 30 in which he reveals that he’s not sorry for any of the crude jokes he made during his long career as a screenwriter.

“To say I was sorry for writing a joke was to sell out my career, to sell out who I’d been my entire life,” Franken wrote in his book, according to the New York Times. “And I wasn’t sorry that I had written Porn-o-Rama or pitched that stupid Lesley Stahl joke at 2 in the morning. I was just doing my job.”

“I give the pills to Lesley Stahl. Then, when Lesley’s passed out, I take her to the closet and rape her. When she passes out, I put her in various positions and take pictures of her,” Franken joked while working as a writer for SNL.

Franken added that he publicly apologized for the jokes after it became clear they bothered women voters in the state of Minnesota. “I learned that campaigns have their own rules, they own laws of physics, and that if I wasn’t willing to accept that, I would never get to be a senator,” Franken said.

His apology paid off. Franken defeated the Republican incumbent by only 300 votes in 2008, an astoundingly close race for a Senate seat. He earned a much wider margin in his reelection effort in the Republican “surge” of 2014.

http://dailycaller.com/2017/06/12/al...pologized-for/

[JonathanL]

He has acknowledged the inappropriateness of the image, stated that he remembers the other encounter differently and, since there is a difference of views, invited an investigation. So if be believes he did not do the other thing as accused, he should simply confess it anyway?

I'm not sure in what way you parsed my post to come to the conclusion that's what I was saying. I'm saying if he's guilty and feels remorse about it he should just come clean.

And let me just add that anytime someone claims that they "remember" encounters like this "differently" from how the alleged victim describes it I become extremely skeptical about their honesty. I don't know of any persons who doesn't remember whether or not they sexually harassed someone in a way Franken is accused of, except perhaps people for which this kind of behavior is so second nature that they engage in it without hardly thinking about what they're doing.

What really makes a difference, IMO, is that he has not stooped to attacking the woman in question, or belittling her in public. I take no position on his guilt or innocence because I do not know. When I do not know, and there are two opposing viewpoints, I say, "let the process work itself out."

I'm of the position that other than the photo which shows highly inappropriate behavior there is too little evidence to definitively say anything about his guilt or innocence regarding the other accusations, other than that his statements makes him sound very suspect and weaselly. It could just be nothing more than a matter of him just not thinking through his words properly though.

[Mountain Man]

His comment was that he remembered the scenario differently, and he apologized for the image. At no point did he ridicule her, and he acknowledged her feelings about the situation were paramount. I was not there - so I am not in a position to judge a he-said, she-said situation. I would suggest none of us are.

Seriously? You think "I remember things differently" is an acceptable response to an accusation of sexual assault? Is he saying it didn't happen? It did happen but she consented? She was asking for it simply because she's a hot woman and shouldn't be complaining that she was kissed by a stud like him?

The picture gives Tweeden's accusations a high degree of credibility, and Franken's dismissive non-denial/non-apology is not good enough.

Besides, the other accusations hardly matter when the picture in and of itself should be enough to get him booted from the Senate in disgrace.

[carpedm9587]

What other option was there?

Well, based on what I have seen others do, he could have claimed she was feigning sleep, was in on the picture, and is now trying to get fame for herself. He could have claimed she asked him to pose for the picture as a joke for her boyfriend, and is now framing him to extort money. He could claim it is photoshopped (thought that one is a bit easier to disprove). Those are the first few that popped into my mind. I'm sure I could come up with more. Yet he did none of these things - and apologized.

What could be gained from an investigation where it literally comes down to he said / she said?

Right now it is he/she said, but how do you know what an investigation will uncover until it happens? Maybe someone has a recording somewhere of him boasting about it. Maybe there were other corroborating witnesses that have not come forward yet. An investigation would be done under oath, so maybe someone will change their story when they are placing their future on the line by lying. Until the investigation happens, we don't know if ANY of that may occur.

There is plenty of other conduct in question - not just that one incident.

Yes, there are - and they are all fairly far past. I look to see if a person has changed when trying to assess what I think of them. I despised Franken's book. I despised much of his humor. But that has largely changed in the past decade. I don't know of other sexual abuse issues, but if you do please share them.

He would be a fool to do that, given her credibility on the national stage.

I have not noted that people have desisted attacking the credibility of women who accuse them of abuse based on their national prominence, Cow Poke. I'm not sure why that would make him any bigger a fool than the other fools we now have running around.

But, you're reasonably certain that, at the very least, he was "mock groping" her breasts, yes? And that big goofy grin while doing it...

Given the combination of the picture and his apology for it, I would say yes.

The hypocrisy here (not necessarily on your part) is that the liberals are calling for Moore to be thrown out on accusations from 35-40 years ago with no evidence, and don't seem very willing to "let the process work itself out". They want blood. In the case of Franken? They want forgiveness.

I can't speak for "liberals." I have not seen many calls for "forgiveness," but perhaps you can point them out to me? What I have seen is people decrying the behavior, and then approving the approach he is taking - a combination of taking ownership and calling for an investigation of himself. As for Moore - the combination of the number of women stepping forward and the testament of his contemporaries of that age that he regularly dated teenagers, raises serious concerns for me. But mostly, his despicable treatment of the women who have come forward is enough for me to find the man a cad and want to see him fail spectacularly in the political system. The Clintons did the same thing, and I had (and have) a similar opinion of them. Trump did the same thing and I have a similar opinion of him. But my guess is Moore won't fail. In our current political system, most people fly their "team colors" when it comes time to vote, and there is little any candidate can say or do anymore that will cause their party to abandon them. We live in a very sad political age, IMO.

[carpedm9587]

I was responding to Rogue.

Thanks for clarifying.

Are you "the liberals"?

I don't consider myself liberal, but I have certainly been labeled as such in these halls - so I wasn't sure if the post was addressed to me.

[carpedm9587]

Nobody said he ridiculed her so that's nothing but a red herring. Still, saying he remembered the scenario differently is just a polite way of calling her a liar.

Umm.. I didn't accuse anyone of doing so. I was explaining why I think as I do about Franken. And no - it's not. My wife and I often have disagreements about what was said by whom in a previous discussion. When I say to her, "I don't remember it that way," I am acknowledging that our memories are different. I am remember it one way, and she is remembering it another. I am not accusing her of lying, and I have no reason to think Franken is doing that either. Indeed - you can't know that either.

It most certainly calls into question the veracity of any apologies that he offers since he is on record for admitting that the apology he offered for his bizarre obsession about enacting out a rape fantasy^[1] of his involving Leslie Stahl on Saturday Night Live (you really should read the accounts of those there who described him as being very insistent about the skit and kept returning to the idea) was nothing more than a calculated, steaming pile of B.S. designed to woo voters^[2].

If I were to dismiss every politician who "spun" what he said to woe voters, I would never vote for anyone. Indeed, Franken appears to be speaking bluntly and frankly in his book. Politics IS a different theater, and it plays by different rules. Franken even describes, in the same book, how he had to learn to "pivot," a political practice that sets my teeth on edge, from the right OR the left. But it gets results, so they do it. Color me surprised.

Why is it that such frank talk that is not "politically correct" is admired when it comes from the right - but decried when it comes from the left?

Franken has been casting himself as a champion of women's rights who is repulsed by sexual harassment and has been very vocal about prosecuting those who commit sexual assault and other legislation

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Now we know it was all a sham and that he is a world class hypocrite and a sexual predator himself.

We know nothing of the sort. There are many possibilities. I have a brother who is prone to using humor inappropriately. I've called him on it multiple times - and some of it is of a sexual nature. Besides this tendency, he is a good man. He just doesn't know when to stop. For all I know, that is what Franken is as well. I have no idea. I'm going to wait for what is uncovered in the investigation.

The point of all this is will the Democrats, who have been saying that just this sort of behavior is completely and unequivocally indefensible and those who act that way are unfit to hold office, show that this was more than just political theory, or will they walk the walk and put their money where their mouth is (sorry for the mixed metaphors).

I've mixed a few in my day - NP. From my perspective, Rogue, both parties are guilty of going "off the rails" when it is someone of the other party" and nodding and winking when it is someone of their own party. It's one of the many, many reasons I will not affiliate with a party.

[carpedm9587]

I'm not sure in what way you parsed my post to come to the conclusion that's what I was saying.

It was a question, Chrawnus - not an accusation.

I'm saying if he's guilty and feels remorse about it he should just come clean.

And if he's not - then he has done what he ought...correct? He has apologized for his behavior, has not ridiculed anyone, acknowledges he remembers the other encounter differently, and called for their to be a formal investigation of himself.

And let me just add that anytime someone claims that they "remember" encounters like this "differently" from how the alleged victim describes it I become extremely skeptical about their honesty. I don't know of any persons who doesn't remember whether or not they sexually harassed someone in a way Franken is accused of, except perhaps people for which this kind of behavior is so second nature that they engage in it without hardly thinking about what they're doing.

Unless Franken's memory is of a playful, jovial encounter while they were horsing around in the context of a skit, with no ill will expressed at the time, and her memory is of feeling "violated." Once, when my wife and I were dating, we had a discussion about being sexually active before marriage. For her it was a big issue. For me it was not. As I have probably shown here, I enjoy a good debate/discussion, so for me we were debating/discussing the appropriateness of premarital sex. It was years later that I learned she experienced that entire discussion as "pressure to have sex." I intended nothing of the kind. I was expressing why I felt it was not a big issue, and was ready and willing to accept her limitations. So I walked away believing we had had a spirited discussion, and she walked away feeling violated.

People do not always walkaway from the same encounter with the same impression.

I'm of the position that other than the photo which shows highly inappropriate behavior there is too little evidence to definitively say anything about his guilt or innocence regarding the other accusations, other than that his statements makes him sound very suspect and weaselly. It could just be nothing more than a matter of him just not thinking through his words properly though.

The photo by itself say nothing to me. There are many circumstances in which it could have been taken, many of which would be no problem for me. The primary issue is consent, and the photo does not tell me about consent. It's suspicious, but not definitive. What makes the photo definitive for me is his acknowledgement of its inappropriateness and his apology for it. With that I am confident saying he acted inappropriately.

[carpedm9587]

Seriously? You think "I remember things differently" is an acceptable response to an accusation of sexual assault?

If it is the truth, yes.

Is he saying it didn't happen?

He is saying his memory of the event differs from hers.

It did happen but she consented?

He is saying his memory of the event differs from hers.

She was asking for it simply because she's a hot woman and shouldn't be complaining that she was kissed by a stud like him?

He is saying his memory of the event differs from hers.

The picture gives Tweeden's accusations a high degree of credibility, and Franken's dismissive non-denial/non-apology is not good enough.

As I noted before, the picture is most definitely suspicious, but what makes it definitive for me is his apology for it. His statement about "remembering it differently" was about the other part of the accusation (the kiss). I understand his statement is not good enough for you. So far, I'm taking him at his word and waiting for the investigation.

Besides, the other accusations hardly matter when the picture in and of itself should be enough to get him booted from the Senate in disgrace.

I would disagree. But I guess we know that.

[Mountain Man]

I'm taking him at his word and waiting for the investigation.

So you believe Tweeden is lying, or is "misremembering" the incident? Why are you willing to take him at his word, but not willing to take her at her word, especially when her word is backed up by damning photographic proof of what a sleaze Franken really is? Why is an investigation even necessary? We have all the evidence we need to demand his resignation!

[carpedm9587]

So you believe Tweeden is lying, or is "misremembering" the incident?

No - I have heard Franken say he remembers it differently, and call for an investigation to try to settle the issue. When two people disagree on something, it is fairly normal to bring it to a civil court, or call for an investigation. I don't see why this should be any different.

Why are you willing to take him at his word, but not willing to take her at her word, especially when her word is backed up by damning photographic proof of what a sleaze Franken really is?

I am taking both at their word, frankly - and their words differ, which I cannot resolve. So I conclude I do not know what happened.

Why is an investigation even necessary?

Because two people have different recollections of the same event. If that can be clarified with an investigation, it seems warranted to me.

We have all the evidence we need to demand his resignation!

Apparently to you. Not to me. So I conclude you will demand his resignation, and I will wait for further evidence and information, and to see how he handles things going forward.

[Mountain Man]

I will wait for further evidence...

What other evidence do you need? He was literally caught in the act on camera sexually assaulting a sleeping woman, and you think we need to wait for more evidence?

[Teallaura]

What other evidence do you need? He was literally caught in the act on camera sexually assaulting a sleeping woman, and you think we need to wait for more evidence?

Franken apologized for that part - and since he didn't say anything negative about Tweeden, Carp is okay with forgiving him on this one.

Beats me as to what he expects if the accusation is actually false.

[carpedm9587]

What other evidence do you need? He was literally caught in the act on camera sexually assaulting a sleeping woman, and you think we need to wait for more evidence?

You appear to be conflating two events, MM. The picture is what Franken apologized for. The other incident, which relates to the kiss, is the one he says he remembers differently.

And the picture does not show him sexually assaulting anyone. It shows him adopting an inappropriate stance in front of a sleeping woman, but he does not appear (to me) to be touching her. Assuming she did not grant permission and she was indeed sleeping (which his apology would suggest is the case), his actions are wildly inappropriate, disrespectful, and condescending. But they do not, IMO, rise to the level of "sexual assault." At least not by any definition of the word I know.

The kiss is another matter, but for that matter I have two people saying two different things - so I have no means for determining what happened. Ergo, I applaud his call for an investigation to attempt to settle the matter. It may not, but we won't know that until it occurs. I am not prepared to come to a conclusion on the basis of what has occurred. If you are, so be it.