Originally posted by shunyadragon
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Welcome to the Archeology forum. Were you out doing some gardening and dug up a relic from the distant past? would you like to know more about Ancient Egypt? Did you think Memphis was actually a city in Tennessee?
Well, for the answers to those and other burning questions you've found the right digs.
Our forum rules apply here too, if you haven't read them now is the time.
Forum Rules: Here
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Ancient Greek 'Masterpiece' Revealed on Thumb-Size Gem
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostWhat do you propose as alternative to simply the creative artistic technology of human abilities?
Quit answering the same post over and over again.
Possible answers:
1) Incorrect dating
2) Anachronistic placement
3) ET is just yanking your chain.
4) Previously unknown tooling capabilities.
5) An angel dropped it.
6) Medieval forger (they forged everything else supposedly).
7) Underwater carving - tedious as heck since the light would be a major issue.
8) Modern forgery.
9) Bigfoot's toenail after his pedicure - it shrinks, you know.
10) Shrinky Dink and stupid archaeologist that didn't know what it was.
11) You're a twit.
Take you pick - I still want to see the machining capability to get something hard and small enough to do that in period."He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
"Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostSimply google ancient Chinese jade carvings for a selection of carving from over the millennia.
What do you propose for source of the carving if not natural creative artistic abilities of humans? Aliens?
You said you collected such jade pieces that compared to the carving. Take a photo and show us. Put it next to something to show scale.
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Diamond stylus in a pantograph, perhaps.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
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Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
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As the others have said, it's not the artistic ability demonstrated in the piece. It's that we have no other Greek piece of from that era with that level of detail. and it's not us saying that, it's the experts in the field saying that.
Second our current knowledge of the skills and tools of the artists of that era cannot explain how the piece was made. This is not to say we think it was made by aliens, or some other mysterious means, what it does say is that there is a major hole in our knowledge of the skills and tools available in that era, and it is intriguing to speculate both how they made the piece and what other skills and tools they had that we think were only available centuries and millennia later.
I would like to see photos of the claim that there are Chinese jade miniatures from the same era with the same level of detail and, as with this piece, I would like to know how they made them.Be watchful, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong.
1 Corinthians 16:13
"...he [Doherty] is no historian and he is not even conversant with the historical discussions of the very matters he wants to pontificate on."
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Originally posted by Raphael View Post
I would like to see photos of the claim that there are Chinese jade miniatures from the same era with the same level of detail and, as with this piece, I would like to know how they made them.
But I could be wrong. He could be uploading photos right now. Right now. right..
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Originally posted by tabibito View PostDiamond stylus in a pantograph, perhaps.
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Originally posted by Raphael View PostAs the others have said, it's not the artistic ability demonstrated in the piece. It's that we have no other Greek piece of from that era with that level of detail. and it's not us saying that, it's the experts in the field saying that.
Second our current knowledge of the skills and tools of the artists of that era cannot explain how the piece was made. This is not to say we think it was made by aliens, or some other mysterious means, what it does say is that there is a major hole in our knowledge of the skills and tools available in that era, and it is intriguing to speculate both how they made the piece and what other skills and tools they had that we think were only available centuries and millennia later.
I would like to see photos of the claim that there are Chinese jade miniatures from the same era with the same level of detail and, as with this piece, I would like to know how they made them.
Actually, not necessary, agate is a silica, which is a hardness of seven, as in China agates, and other rocks of a hardness of seven or less were used in detailed abrasive carving, diamonds are not necessary. In China these techniques of using stone to to intricately carve stone were used up until the 18th-19th century.
Sparko must be blind the jade carving pictures I googled had equivalent detail even on a larger more detailed scale.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostActually, not necessary, agate is a silica, which is a hardness of seven, as in China agates, and other rocks of a hardness of seven or less were used in detailed abrasive carving, diamonds are not necessary. In China these techniques of using stone to to intricately carve stone were used up until the 18th-19th century.
Sparko must be blind the jade carving pictures I googled had equivalent detail even on a larger more detailed scale.
2.) You have not provided any links (from Google or otherwise) to the pieces you're saying Sparko is ignoring.
Are there Chinese pieces, from the same period, with the same level of fine detail? I want to see the pictures and the articles about them because I am genuinely interested in it. I also would love to know how they made them with the level of detail we see in this piece as the current view from the experts is we don't know how they managed such fine detail as we thought the technology to do so was only developed centuries and millennia later.Be watchful, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong.
1 Corinthians 16:13
"...he [Doherty] is no historian and he is not even conversant with the historical discussions of the very matters he wants to pontificate on."
-Ben Witherington III
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I'm always still in trouble again
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Originally posted by Raphael View Post1.) I thought you said that you had miniatures from the period.
2.) You have not provided any links (from Google or otherwise) to the pieces you're saying Sparko is ignoring.
Are there Chinese pieces, from the same period, with the same level of fine detail? I want to see the pictures and the articles about them because I am genuinely interested in it. I also would love to know how they made them with the level of detail we see in this piece as the current view from the experts is we don't know how they managed such fine detail as we thought the technology to do so was only developed centuries and millennia later.
I may post some of pictures in the future they are on CDs and I have to dig them out. My best piece is pale green nephrite of a bunch of grapes with a mouse about the same size as the Greek carving. It shows intricate life like detail of the vine. grape leaves, and mouse ears.Last edited by shunyadragon; 01-08-2018, 08:01 AM.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostActually, not necessary, agate is a silica, which is a hardness of seven, as in China agates, and other rocks of a hardness of seven or less were used in detailed abrasive carving, diamonds are not necessary. In China these techniques of using stone to to intricately carve stone were used up until the 18th-19th century.
Sparko must be blind the jade carving pictures I googled had equivalent detail even on a larger more detailed scale.
Originally posted by shunyadragon previously View PostI read the post and the issue of magnification is not a significant issue.
You may not have seen it, but it is common in ancient Chinese jade carvings. I have collected and studied Neolithic Jade carvings of China for many years and some of their works are as fine as the one you cite.
As usual, you find the need to stick your mouth where it doesn't belong so you can claim to be some sort of expert, when you apparently can't even use google correctly.
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Originally posted by Raphael View Post1.) I thought you said that you had miniatures from the period.
2.) You have not provided any links (from Google or otherwise) to the pieces you're saying Sparko is ignoring.
Are there Chinese pieces, from the same period, with the same level of fine detail? I want to see the pictures and the articles about them because I am genuinely interested in it. I also would love to know how they made them with the level of detail we see in this piece as the current view from the experts is we don't know how they managed such fine detail as we thought the technology to do so was only developed centuries and millennia later.
The following reference describes Neolithic jade culture carvings from 4900 BCE
http://www.visual-arts-cork.com/east...de-carving.htmLast edited by shunyadragon; 01-08-2018, 06:25 PM.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View Postgoogle Chinese jade carvings. The same technology of using hard stone tools to carve amorphous stone like agate and nephrite did not change in China for millennia. The current experts cited only mentioned the apparent technology known in Greece.
Here are a couple rare pieces from the time of the Shang dynasty (the start of which is contemporaneous to when the Greek stone was carved) size unknown.
Again, no comparison to
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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