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Thread: Ancient Greek 'Masterpiece' Revealed on Thumb-Size Gem

  1. #21
    Child of the One True King Raphael's Avatar
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    As the others have said, it's not the artistic ability demonstrated in the piece. It's that we have no other Greek piece of from that era with that level of detail. and it's not us saying that, it's the experts in the field saying that.

    Second our current knowledge of the skills and tools of the artists of that era cannot explain how the piece was made. This is not to say we think it was made by aliens, or some other mysterious means, what it does say is that there is a major hole in our knowledge of the skills and tools available in that era, and it is intriguing to speculate both how they made the piece and what other skills and tools they had that we think were only available centuries and millennia later.

    I would like to see photos of the claim that there are Chinese jade miniatures from the same era with the same level of detail and, as with this piece, I would like to know how they made them.
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  3. #22
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raphael View Post

    I would like to see photos of the claim that there are Chinese jade miniatures from the same era with the same level of detail and, as with this piece, I would like to know how they made them.
    Me too. Still waiting for Shuny to produce. I googled it and there is nothing like this at that scale and detail in jade. They made small jade statues but looks mostly like trinket stuff. Nothing ancient even close to this. Shuny just likes to pretend to be superior and then not come through when asked to prove his claims.

    But I could be wrong. He could be uploading photos right now. Right now. right..

  4. #23
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tabibito View Post
    Diamond stylus in a pantograph, perhaps.
    Actually, not necessary, agate is a silica, which is a hardness of seven, as in China agates, and other rocks of a hardness of seven or less were used in detailed abrasive carving, diamonds are not necessary. In China these techniques of using stone to to intricately carve stone were used up until the 18th-19th century.
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  5. #24
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raphael View Post
    As the others have said, it's not the artistic ability demonstrated in the piece. It's that we have no other Greek piece of from that era with that level of detail. and it's not us saying that, it's the experts in the field saying that.

    Second our current knowledge of the skills and tools of the artists of that era cannot explain how the piece was made. This is not to say we think it was made by aliens, or some other mysterious means, what it does say is that there is a major hole in our knowledge of the skills and tools available in that era, and it is intriguing to speculate both how they made the piece and what other skills and tools they had that we think were only available centuries and millennia later.

    I would like to see photos of the claim that there are Chinese jade miniatures from the same era with the same level of detail and, as with this piece, I would like to know how they made them.

    Actually, not necessary, agate is a silica, which is a hardness of seven, as in China agates, and other rocks of a hardness of seven or less were used in detailed abrasive carving, diamonds are not necessary. In China these techniques of using stone to to intricately carve stone were used up until the 18th-19th century.

    Sparko must be blind the jade carving pictures I googled had equivalent detail even on a larger more detailed scale.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  6. #25
    Child of the One True King Raphael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    Actually, not necessary, agate is a silica, which is a hardness of seven, as in China agates, and other rocks of a hardness of seven or less were used in detailed abrasive carving, diamonds are not necessary. In China these techniques of using stone to to intricately carve stone were used up until the 18th-19th century.

    Sparko must be blind the jade carving pictures I googled had equivalent detail even on a larger more detailed scale.
    1.) I thought you said that you had miniatures from the period.
    2.) You have not provided any links (from Google or otherwise) to the pieces you're saying Sparko is ignoring.

    Are there Chinese pieces, from the same period, with the same level of fine detail? I want to see the pictures and the articles about them because I am genuinely interested in it. I also would love to know how they made them with the level of detail we see in this piece as the current view from the experts is we don't know how they managed such fine detail as we thought the technology to do so was only developed centuries and millennia later.
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  7. Amen Cerebrum123, Teallaura amen'd this post.
  8. #26
    Evolution is God's ID rogue06's Avatar
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    A few images of the "Pylos Combat Agate" from a Science Alert article


    00000000000000ars5.jpg
    before & after cleaning

    00000000000000ars6.jpg
    3.6 cm (1.4") long

    00000000000000ars8.jpg

    I'm always still in trouble again

  9. Amen Raphael amen'd this post.
  10. #27
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raphael View Post
    1.) I thought you said that you had miniatures from the period.
    2.) You have not provided any links (from Google or otherwise) to the pieces you're saying Sparko is ignoring.

    Are there Chinese pieces, from the same period, with the same level of fine detail? I want to see the pictures and the articles about them because I am genuinely interested in it. I also would love to know how they made them with the level of detail we see in this piece as the current view from the experts is we don't know how they managed such fine detail as we thought the technology to do so was only developed centuries and millennia later.
    In China the technology of carving detail in amorphous stones like jade, agates, and other jade like stones dates to the same time as the Greek carving. The pictures cover a wide range of dates from the Neolithic to the 19th century. The techniques as previously described remained the same traditional techniques of using stones to carve stones in great detail up until the introduction of steel tools in the late 18th and 19th century for mass produced non-traditional carving. Even in the Neolithic Chinese developed drills, laths, and grinding wheels made of hard stone (hardness of 7.0 and greater. Even today some carvings have preserved the ancient techniques of stone carving stone by abrasion. The Chinese have a great reverence to do things the traditional way the ancient Chinese did.

    I may post some of pictures in the future they are on CDs and I have to dig them out. My best piece is pale green nephrite of a bunch of grapes with a mouse about the same size as the Greek carving. It shows intricate life like detail of the vine. grape leaves, and mouse ears.
    Last edited by shunyadragon; 01-08-2018 at 01:01 PM.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  11. #28
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    Actually, not necessary, agate is a silica, which is a hardness of seven, as in China agates, and other rocks of a hardness of seven or less were used in detailed abrasive carving, diamonds are not necessary. In China these techniques of using stone to to intricately carve stone were used up until the 18th-19th century.

    Sparko must be blind the jade carving pictures I googled had equivalent detail even on a larger more detailed scale.
    Shuny, you said you collected such pieces and they were equivalent to the piece in the OP

    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon previously View Post
    I read the post and the issue of magnification is not a significant issue.

    You may not have seen it, but it is common in ancient Chinese jade carvings. I have collected and studied Neolithic Jade carvings of China for many years and some of their works are as fine as the one you cite.
    Yet now you are admitting that not only do you not HAVE such pieces in your collection, that you merely googled them and they are NOT of equivalent size.

    As usual, you find the need to stick your mouth where it doesn't belong so you can claim to be some sort of expert, when you apparently can't even use google correctly.

  12. Amen Cerebrum123, Teallaura amen'd this post.
  13. #29
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raphael View Post
    1.) I thought you said that you had miniatures from the period.
    2.) You have not provided any links (from Google or otherwise) to the pieces you're saying Sparko is ignoring.

    Are there Chinese pieces, from the same period, with the same level of fine detail? I want to see the pictures and the articles about them because I am genuinely interested in it. I also would love to know how they made them with the level of detail we see in this piece as the current view from the experts is we don't know how they managed such fine detail as we thought the technology to do so was only developed centuries and millennia later.
    google Chinese jade carvings. The same technology of using hard stone tools to carve amorphous stone like agate and nephrite did not change in China for millennia. The current experts cited only mentioned the apparent technology known in Greece.

    The following reference describes Neolithic jade culture carvings from 4900 BCE

    http://www.visual-arts-cork.com/east...de-carving.htm
    Last edited by shunyadragon; 01-08-2018 at 11:25 PM.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  14. #30
    Evolution is God's ID rogue06's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    google Chinese jade carvings. The same technology of using hard stone tools to carve amorphous stone like agate and nephrite did not change in China for millennia. The current experts cited only mentioned the apparent technology known in Greece.
    I did and looking at even later pieces, such as this larger (3" tall) one from the Western Zhou dynasty (9th-8th century B.C.) which is considered a splendid piece (selling for $100,000 at an auction at Christies in 2016), it looks flat and lifeless in contrast to the "Pylos Combat Agate."




    Here are a couple rare pieces from the time of the Shang dynasty (the start of which is contemporaneous to when the Greek stone was carved) size unknown.




    Again, no comparison to



    I'm always still in trouble again

  15. Amen Teallaura, Cerebrum123 amen'd this post.

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