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Ancient Greek 'Masterpiece' Revealed on Thumb-Size Gem

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  • #31
    Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
    google Chinese jade carvings. The same technology of using hard stone tools to carve amorphous stone like agate and nephrite did not change in China for millennia. The current experts cited only mentioned the apparent technology known in Greece.

    The following reference describes Neolithic jade culture carvings from 4900 BCE

    http://www.visual-arts-cork.com/east...de-carving.htm
    ok

    song-jade.jpg

    This is nowhere the size or complexity of the Greek piece. You are wrong.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
      I did and looking at even later pieces, such as this larger (3" tall) one from the Western Zhou dynasty (9th-8th century B.C.) which is considered a splendid piece (selling for $100,000 at an auction at Christies in 2016), it looks flat and lifeless in contrast to the "Pylos Combat Agate."


      [ATTACH=CONFIG]25884[/ATTACH]


      Here are a couple rare pieces from the time of the Shang dynasty (the start of which is contemporaneous to when the Greek stone was carved) size unknown.

      [ATTACH=CONFIG]25885[/ATTACH]

      [ATTACH=CONFIG]25886[/ATTACH]



      Again, no comparison to


      [ATTACH=CONFIG]25887[/ATTACH]
      And it is not just the realistic detail, it is the action pose. The Greek piece would look at home in a Michelangelo painting. The Jade stuff shunya keeps on about is just decorative hair pieces and abstract statues, all much larger and less detailed. And the fact that he can't come up with examples on his own but tells us to google it... that shows he has nothing but smoke.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Sparko View Post
        And it is not just the realistic detail, it is the action pose. The Greek piece would look at home in a Michelangelo painting. The Jade stuff shunya keeps on about is just decorative hair pieces and abstract statues, all much larger and less detailed. And the fact that he can't come up with examples on his own but tells us to google it... that shows he has nothing but smoke.
        My own google searches aren't producing any support for Shunyadragon's claims.
        1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
        .
        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
        Scripture before Tradition:
        but that won't prevent others from
        taking it upon themselves to deprive you
        of the right to call yourself Christian.

        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Sparko View Post
          ok

          [ATTACH=CONFIG]25890[/ATTACH]

          This is nowhere the size or complexity of the Greek piece. You are wrong.
          I believe it is and made of a similar material and Neolithic techniques of the time of the Greek Greek carving. In fact it shows three dimensional detail and very fine life like stems as thin as a thread. I have seen these carvings before.

          Wrong about what?!?!?!

          That human creativity can create finely detailed carvings using stones to carve stones. Your really picking frog hairs here on the differences.
          Last edited by shunyadragon; 01-09-2018, 08:01 AM.
          Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
          Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
          But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

          go with the flow the river knows . . .

          Frank

          I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Sparko View Post
            ok

            [ATTACH=CONFIG]25890[/ATTACH]

            This is nowhere the size or complexity of the Greek piece. You are wrong.
            Even it it was (and I concur that it isn't) there is the description of the hairpiece to be considered.
            Jade Hair Ornament
            with Flower Design
            Jin/Song Dynasty (1115-1234)
            Shanghai Museum.
            1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
            .
            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
            Scripture before Tradition:
            but that won't prevent others from
            taking it upon themselves to deprive you
            of the right to call yourself Christian.

            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Sparko View Post
              ok

              [ATTACH=CONFIG]25890[/ATTACH]

              This is nowhere the size or complexity of the Greek piece. You are wrong.
              shunyadragon is just talking out his butt, like usual. He's unwilling to accept that he might be wrong on something like this. I don't know why he chose to dig his heels in on such a topic, but then again it is shunyadragon.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                Even it it was (and I concur that it isn't) there is the description of the hairpiece to be considered.
                Jade Hair Ornament
                with Flower Design
                Jin/Song Dynasty (1115-1234)
                Shanghai Museum.
                Your conclusion is problematic. The Chinese carving is made with Neolithic techniques of carving stone with stone and the detail is three dimensional, life like and as fine or finer than the Greek example. Steel carving tools were not available, and brass and bronze are too soft.

                Sparko and you are just talking out his butt, like usual. Both of you unwilling to accept that you both might you may be wrong on something like this, since you have absolutely no experience in this and only arguing from on news release. I don't know why you both chose to dig your heels on such a topic, but then again it is just Sparko and you arguing from ignorance.

                Chinese jade carvings, techniques, and Chinese culture are my specialties for over thirty years with nine years living in China.
                Last edited by shunyadragon; 01-09-2018, 08:12 AM.
                Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                go with the flow the river knows . . .

                Frank

                I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                  Your conclusion is problematic. The Chinese carving is made with Neolithic techniques of carving stone with stone and the detail is three dimensional, life like and as fine or finer than the Greek example. Steel carving tools were not available, and brass and bronze are too soft.
                  You need glasses if you think they are anywhere near the same level of detail.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                    Your conclusion is problematic. The Chinese carving is made with Neolithic techniques of carving stone with stone and the detail is three dimensional, life like and as fine or finer than the Greek example. Steel carving tools were not available, and brass and bronze are too soft.

                    Sparko and you are just talking out his butt, like usual. Both of you unwilling to accept that you both might you may be wrong on something like this, since you have absolutely no experience in this and only arguing from on news release. I don't know why you both chose to dig your heels on such a topic, but then again it is just Sparko and you arguing from ignorance.

                    Chinese jade carvings, techniques, and Chinese culture are my specialties for over thirty years with nine years living in China.
                    Plenty of techniques produce different results when improved tools are used. Your claim was for 3000+ year old examples - you haven't produced anything by way of substantiation.
                    1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                    .
                    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                    Scripture before Tradition:
                    but that won't prevent others from
                    taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                    of the right to call yourself Christian.

                    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                      I believe it is and made of a similar material and Neolithic techniques of the time of the Greek Greek carving. In fact it shows three dimensional detail and very fine life like stems as thin as a thread. I have seen these carvings before.

                      Wrong about what?!?!?!

                      That human creativity can create finely detailed carvings using stones to carve stones. Your really picking frog hairs here on the differences.
                      The entire greek piece we are discussing would fit inside one of those flowers, Shunya. You are wrong about the jade carvers having the same skill/technical level as the Greek piece.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        The following reference describes Neolithic jade culture carvings from 4900 BCE
                        Nuff said
                        1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                        .
                        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                        Scripture before Tradition:
                        but that won't prevent others from
                        taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                        of the right to call yourself Christian.

                        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Shunya, let me get this straight: you claim just because because you think that the Chinese techniques of jade/stone carving remained unchanged from the Neolithic to the late 18th/early 19th century (AD) that because later Jade pieces exhibit the same/similar detail as the Pylos Combat Agate (PCA) this is evidence that Neolithic Chinese carvers could have done the same.

                          The problem with this is that the actual jade pieces we have that are from that time "bear as much resemblance as a Mickey Mouse cartoon to Michelangelo" to the PCA (to quote Professor Jack Davis). The jade pieces are good. For arguments sake I will even agree they are probably better than the majority of contemporary Greek works. The problem is that like the contemporary Greek pieces they are much larger than the PCA and the level of detail is not as minute (one of the problems with figuring out how the PCA was carved is the fact that to see all the detail you need some pretty decent magnification and the earliest crude magnifying glasses we know about are 1000 years younger than the PCA).

                          The fact that later Chinese carvers could do such detailed work is irrelevant as so could later Greek carvers, not because the overall technique had changed, but the tools they had available (like magnifying glasses) did. Some details on the PCA are less than 1mm in length, and they are actual detail, not a slip of the artist's tools.
                          Be watchful, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong.
                          1 Corinthians 16:13

                          "...he [Doherty] is no historian and he is not even conversant with the historical discussions of the very matters he wants to pontificate on."
                          -Ben Witherington III

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                            ok

                            [ATTACH=CONFIG]25890[/ATTACH]

                            This is nowhere the size or complexity of the Greek piece. You are wrong.
                            While actually a nice piece keep in mind that it is not even a thousand years old (Jin/Song Dynasty: 1115-1234 AD) and not from the Bronze Age


                            ETA: I see that tabibito has already noted the age difference
                            Last edited by rogue06; 01-09-2018, 02:51 PM.

                            I'm always still in trouble again

                            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
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                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                              While actually a nice piece keep in mind that it is not even a thousand years old (Jin/Song Dynasty: 1115-1234 AD) and not from the Bronze Age


                              ETA: I see that tabibito has already noted the age difference
                              http://www.alaintruong.com/archives/...i-state=dialog
                              Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                              Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                              But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                              go with the flow the river knows . . .

                              Frank

                              I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Still nowhere near the intricate work on the agate from the OP.

                                Comment

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