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Thread: The Apologetics of Confrontation and Anger

  1. #11
    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by demi-conservative View Post
    Confrontation is duty! Submit, godless one!!!

    We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.
    Why do I have a desire to say, "Avast, me hearties!" :pirate: (there really SHOULD be a pirate emoji)

  2. #12
    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by demi-conservative View Post
    Let's tear apart BS here:





    But Jesus, knowing their evil intent, said, “You hypocrites, why are you trying to trap me? Show me the coin used for paying the tax.” They brought him a denarius, and he asked them, “Whose image is this? And whose inscription?”

    “Caesar’s,” they replied.

    Then he said to them, “So give back to Caesar what is Caesar’s, and to God what is God’s.”


    Powerful, masterful response can go with confrontation, calling opponents 'hypocrites'.
    Guess I need to go back and reread my scriptures - I have apparently shifted my image of Jesus over the years from the reality as depicted in the gospels. Ironically, your response had the effect of reducing my respect for the Jesus of history. Have at it, then. But perhaps you might want to consider the possibility that this is a factor in the shift away from traditional Christian faiths in the U.S. Since 2007, Christians, as a share of the U.S. population, fell 7.8% to the current level of 70.6% (http://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/), and the trend appears to be continuing. Increasingly, the young seem to be shifting away, citing any number of factors. I don't know about anyone else, but when I am reviled as a "godless scum," "baby-killing liberal," or "hypocrite," I do not find myself inclined to run towards those acting that way.

    BTW - I DO recognize that this is not ALL Christians. I was specifically addressing those who feel this is a good way to conduct an apologetic. It just seems self-defeating to me.
    Last edited by carpedm9587; 11-22-2017 at 01:38 PM.

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    Professor Cerebrum123's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    Why do I have a desire to say, "Avast, me hearties!" :pirate: (there really SHOULD be a pirate emoji)


  4. Amen mossrose amen'd this post.
  5. #14
    Professor Cerebrum123's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    Guess I need to go back and reread my scriptures - I have apparently shifted my image of Jesus of the years from the reality. Ironically, your response had the effect of reducing my respect for the Jesus of history. Have at it, then. But perhaps you might want to consider the possibility that this is a factor in the shift away from traditional Christian faiths in the U.S. Since 2007, Christians, as a share of the U.S. population, fell 7.8% to the current level of 70.6% (http://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/), and the trend appears to be continuing. Increasingly, the young seem to be shifting away, citing any number of factors. I don't know about anyone else, but when I am reviled as a "godless scum," "baby-killing liberal," or "hypocrite," I do not find myself inclined to run towards those acting that way.
    I haven't interacted with you much, but I thought I would bring this point up. Jesus responded like the above to the Pharisees and Sadducees, but not to sincere people who were not yet believers. The Roman centurion for example was said to have greater faith than he had seen in Israel. Harsh words seem to be reserved for those who either are insincere, or who are "on the attack". You don't seem to be in either of those two groups from what I have seen.

    Also, different people respond to harsh words differently. Some people respect the more harsh approach, while others see it as distasteful. I'm rather blunt, but I tend to the more "soft" approach. However, I've also seen where a harsher approach is necessary.

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    tWebber Roy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    An ad hominem is not equal to an insult or a disparagement? I agree it is not always vulgar - but how is it not the other two. Can to provide an example of an ad hominem that is not an insult or a disparagement?
    "Your argument is invalid because you were born in December".
    Last edited by Roy; 11-22-2017 at 01:57 PM.
    Starlight: "In America a lot of tap-water is contaminated with lead or chemicals from fracking, because the right-wing crazies are anti-regulation."
    Lilpixieoferror: "Another day another Starlight fable. What actually causes high lead levels in water is lead pipes or lead solder, not industrial waste from any source. Well, so much for this Starlight fable... I wonder what tomorrow’s made up story will be in his ‘I HATE AMERICAN CHRISTIANS!!!’ quest."

  7. Amen psstein amen'd this post.
  8. #16
    tWebber demi-conservative's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    But perhaps you might want to consider the possibility that this is a factor in the shift away from traditional Christian faiths in the U.S. Since 2007, Christians, as a share of the U.S. population, fell 7.8% to the current level of 70.6% (http://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/), and the trend appears to be continuing.
    Part of this is because thinking now is that Niceness = godliness. We need more hellfire preaching!

    Increasingly, the young seem to be shifting away, citing any number of factors. I don't know about anyone else, but when I am reviled as a "godless scum," "baby-killing liberal," or "hypocrite," I do not find myself inclined to run towards those acting that way.
    No need to go around calling people 'scum' all the time, yes, but those in darkness hate being exposed!

    "Look how Nice we are!!!! Come join our Nice little group in church" is not right way to go.
    Trump is basically "Bruce Wayne pretending to be a foppish retarded billionaire" tier genius, in case nerds need a simpler metaphor.

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    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roy View Post
    "Your argument is invalid because you were born in December".


    I concede the point....

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    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
    I haven't interacted with you much, but I thought I would bring this point up. Jesus responded like the above to the Pharisees and Sadducees, but not to sincere people who were not yet believers. The Roman centurion for example was said to have greater faith than he had seen in Israel. Harsh words seem to be reserved for those who either are insincere, or who are "on the attack". You don't seem to be in either of those two groups from what I have seen.

    Also, different people respond to harsh words differently. Some people respect the more harsh approach, while others see it as distasteful. I'm rather blunt, but I tend to the more "soft" approach. However, I've also seen where a harsher approach is necessary.
    I wish I could say I was never one of those "atheists on the attack." I will still challenge a statement I do not agree with, but I think age has mellowed me a bit. And the current political climate dismays me a LOT. Somehow, we have to find a way to return to civility and bridge the enormous divide that currently exists. I think there are bad people in the world - but I do not think someone who thinks differently than I is "automatically bad." Most of the time, we have the same basic moral fabric and values - but we differ in how they are expressed and applied.

    But I have learned, through experience, that a harsh approach has never really achieved anything for me - except to piss off the person I am confronting and more strongly polarize the relationship. When I encounter someone who is "on the attack," I find it largely a waste of my time to engage. I'll ask if they can tone it down, but if they cannot - I'll move on.

    Of course, I am not under a requirement to spread the Christian (or any other) message, so that might change things. But I still find it regretful when people choose polarizing language instead of looking for common ground. When I attack - it really says nothing about the person attacked - it says a lot about me.

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    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by demi-conservative View Post
    Part of this is because thinking now is that Niceness = godliness. We need more hellfire preaching!

    No need to go around calling people 'scum' all the time, yes, but those in darkness hate being exposed!

    "Look how Nice we are!!!! Come join our Nice little group in church" is not right way to go.
    You're taking an observation to its extreme, Demi. No one suggested "wimpiness" or failure to challenge things that ought be challenged. There is a difference between what we challenge and how we challenge it. In the Jesus exchange I cited, Jesus could have made exactly the same point without the "Hypocrites!" (indeed, that is how I remembered it). All of the rest of his response was a rebuke, and a powerful one. "Hypocrites" added nothing to it and, IMO, denigrated the message. Rather than keep open the possibility that some of them MIGHT have caught the rebuke and taken it away and thought about it, Jesus first polarized the situation, virtually ensuring that the message that followed would not be heard by any of his accusers.

    This is the dynamic I see so often from those most passionate about their beliefs, from the far right to the far left. If the goal is to convince and convey a message, the approach defeats the goal, IMO.

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    Professor Cerebrum123's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    I wish I could say I was never one of those "atheists on the attack." I will still challenge a statement I do not agree with, but I think age has mellowed me a bit. And the current political climate dismays me a LOT. Somehow, we have to find a way to return to civility and bridge the enormous divide that currently exists. I think there are bad people in the world - but I do not think someone who thinks differently than I is "automatically bad." Most of the time, we have the same basic moral fabric and values - but we differ in how they are expressed and applied.

    But I have learned, through experience, that a harsh approach has never really achieved anything for me - except to piss off the person I am confronting and more strongly polarize the relationship. When I encounter someone who is "on the attack," I find it largely a waste of my time to engage. I'll ask if they can tone it down, but if they cannot - I'll move on.

    Of course, I am not under a requirement to spread the Christian (or any other) message, so that might change things. But I still find it regretful when people choose polarizing language instead of looking for common ground. When I attack - it really says nothing about the person attacked - it says a lot about me.
    My experience has been different. I will agree that most people in most Western countries dislike the aggressive approach, but certainly not all. I know that I have personally rethought some things when given a harsh answer, although admittedly not always. It really depends on the person, the situation, and other stuff.

    The "moral fabric" seems to be increasingly different between the left and right as time goes on. While there is some common ground, it is a lot less than it used to be. As people move further and further from that common basis, which in the USA, and many other Western countries used to be grounded in Christianity, politics gets more and more polarized. I see it continuing down this path for a long time to come barring a miracle.

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