Gun Rights and Gun Control

[One Bad Pig]

One of the conservative conspiracy theories about Obama was that he was going to seize everyone's guns, and that then they wouldn't be able to fight back when he refused to step down after his term limits were up.

This was only a theory held by a fringe of the fringe - can you say the same about leftist fears that Trump is going to seize power and refuse to step down?

Australia actually enacted a big gun buyback program (the picture) after a big mass shooting there and they haven't had one since.

Yes and no - it depends if you define "mass shooting" under Australian terms (which makes your statement true) or US terms (which makes your statement false). Australia now has about as many guns as they did before the buyback, so scarcity of guns does not appear to be the reason for the decline.

[carpedm9587]

This was only a theory held by a fringe of the fringe - can you say the same about leftist fears that Trump is going to seize power and refuse to step down?

I have a pretty extensive set of leftist friends. I cannot say I have ever heard this or seen it in anything I've read - and I've been reading pretty widely (politically) since October of 2016. Where are you seeing this?

Yes and no - it depends if you define "mass shooting" under Australian terms (which makes your statement true) or US terms (which makes your statement false). Australia now has about as many guns as they did before the buyback, so scarcity of guns does not appear to be the reason for the decline.

It is not clear to me how your "no" link means "no." Did you link the wrong article?

[Littlejoe]

I have a pretty extensive set of leftist friends. I cannot say I have ever heard this or seen it in anything I've read - and I've been reading pretty widely (politically) since October of 2016. Where are you seeing this?



It is not clear to me how your "no" link means "no." Did you link the wrong article?

From the ''No" article:

Since the law went into effect, only one mass shooting has occurred in Australia -- a 2014 incident where a farmer shot his wife and three children before killing himself, according to The Associated Press.

Starlight has said (repeatedly) there have be zero mass shootings. But, also, the report that is linked in that article calls the statement "...not cut and dried..."

[One Bad Pig]

I have a pretty extensive set of leftist friends. I cannot say I have ever heard this or seen it in anything I've read - and I've been reading pretty widely (politically) since October of 2016. Where are you seeing this?

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Three of the top four hits are comparing Trump to dictators - and dictators, by any common understanding, do not voluntarily relinquish power.

It is not clear to me how your "no" link means "no." Did you link the wrong article?

It is possible I got the links backwards - wasn't sure which link to put where.

[Sparko]

Depends whether dictator Obama seized them all like he did in Australia...

Australia probably sold them all to the USA.

[carpedm9587]

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Three of the top four hits are comparing Trump to dictators - and dictators, by any common understanding, do not voluntarily relinquish power.

There is a difference between Trump admiring despots (which he repeatedly has), showing signs of many common traits with despots (of which he has many), speculating that he would probably love to keep power (which is not a significant stretch of the imagination) and thinking our constitutional system is vunerable to him actually doing so. I believe the first three are true, from what I have come to know about the man and his history and what I see in his behavior. I also admit that I had some real concerns, when he first won and shortly after he took office, about whether or not our system of government was up to this test. But it became fairly clear, early on, that the system of checks and balances in our government were adequate to contain a man like Trump, and my concerns faded.

I am sure some on the left-most edge of left are still bandying these around - but I have not seen it as a major concern of the "left" and "center" of our country. So yes, to answer your earlier question, I think we can say the same about this issue on the left as the original issue on the right.

It is possible I got the links backwards - wasn't sure which link to put where.

Except both links seemed to link to articles that were roughly the same - at least about the same event and outcome.

[RumTumTugger]

Starlight is so far left in his view he thinks Sanders is center left leaning.

[One Bad Pig]

There is a difference between Trump admiring despots (which he repeatedly has), showing signs of many common traits with despots (of which he has many), speculating that he would probably love to keep power (which is not a significant stretch of the imagination) and thinking our constitutional system is vunerable to him actually doing so. I believe the first three are true, from what I have come to know about the man and his history and what I see in his behavior. I also admit that I had some real concerns, when he first won and shortly after he took office, about whether or not our system of government was up to this test. But it became fairly clear, early on, that the system of checks and balances in our government were adequate to contain a man like Trump, and my concerns faded.

I am sure some on the left-most edge of left are still bandying these around - but I have not seen it as a major concern of the "left" and "center" of our country. So yes, to answer your earlier question, I think we can say the same about this issue on the left as the original issue on the right.

It seems like you're arguing two different things here. One, you (who identify with neither right nor left, but somewhere in the middle) admit to having had the concerns (which is all that starlight's allegation would require). Two, you say that only the left of the left still holds those concerns. Given that the left's opposition to Trump doesn't seem to have died down in the slightest, I'm skeptical that the idea has diminished as much as you allege.

Except both links seemed to link to articles that were roughly the same - at least about the same event and outcome.

One said that no mass shootings had occurred under the Australian definition (at least 13 killed); the other said that one had, where 5 were killed (obviously using a different definition). I don't understand your confusion.

[carpedm9587]

It seems like you're arguing two different things here. One, you (who identify with neither right nor left, but somewhere in the middle) admit to having had the concerns (which is all that starlight's allegation would require). Two, you say that only the left of the left still holds those concerns. Given that the left's opposition to Trump doesn't seem to have died down in the slightest, I'm skeptical that the idea has diminished as much as you allege.

It seems you missed my point. I don't think the left has at ALL abandoned the observation that Trump admires despots (he says so), or that he has the characteristics of a despot (excessive self-congratulation, attacking the media, extreme incidents of lying, labeling as "other" political enemies, advocating for jail for the opposition, surrounding himself with military figures, advocating for military display at his innauguration, etc.). Based on his words and actions, that he would love to BE a despot is not a stretch of the imagination - and I suspect many on the left (and many in the middle, myself included) hold that suspicion.

What has changed is increasing confidence in our government systems to contain a man like Trump - so I do not see incidence (anymore) of widespread fear in centrists or the left that Trump is actually going to attempt to seize power (beyond what is politically possible in our system). That is what your original post suggested: "can you say the same about leftist fears that Trump is going to seize power and refuse to step down?"

I (we?) no longer fear he is actually going to attempt this. That he WOULD if he actually COULD is a strong suspicion. There are too many factors that point in that direction. But he can't.

One said that no mass shootings had occurred under the Australian definition (at least 13 killed); the other said that one had, where 5 were killed (obviously using a different definition). I don't understand your confusion.

Ahh.. I missed that subtlety. Frankly, I guess the carnage in our country is such that "five people" doesn't register as "mass" to me. I understand the FBI uses "four or more," but a family murder/suicide situation seems quantifiably/qualifiably different than someone pulling out an automatic or semi-automatic weapon in a public venue and spraying down the crowd. I think the latter is what is being referred to in the observation that Australia has not had one since implementing their laws.

[carpedm9587]

Starlight is so far left in his view he thinks Sanders is center left leaning.

He's not?

[RumTumTugger]

He's not?

I missed your wit Carpedm did I tell you i'm glad you are back?

[Jedidiah]

. . . That he WOULD if he actually COULD is a strong suspicion. There are too many factors that point in that direction. But he can't.

I am sure that Obama would have if he could have, but he couldn't.

[carpedm9587]

I am sure that Obama would have if he could have, but he couldn't.

You may be sure - but I see no evidence that is the case. I also know no evidence that it was the case for either Bush, Reagan, Clinton, Nixon, or any president going back to Jackson. The same is not true of Trump. There is significant evidence that he has despotic tendencies.

[carpedm9587]

I missed your wit Carpedm did I tell you i'm glad you are back?

Thanks. It's actually nice to BE back. I have to admit I was beginning to feel somewhat locked into my own echo chamber.

I'm DEFINITELY not locked into that now.

I DO seem to be in other people's echo chamber, though...

[One Bad Pig]

It seems you missed my point. I don't think the left has at ALL abandoned the observation that Trump admires despots (he says so), or that he has the characteristics of a despot (excessive self-congratulation, attacking the media, extreme incidents of lying, labeling as "other" political enemies, advocating for jail for the opposition, surrounding himself with military figures, advocating for military display at his innauguration, etc.). Based on his words and actions, that he would love to BE a despot is not a stretch of the imagination - and I suspect many on the left (and many in the middle, myself included) hold that suspicion.

What has changed is increasing confidence in our government systems to contain a man like Trump - so I do not see incidence (anymore) of widespread fear in centrists or the left that Trump is actually going to attempt to seize power (beyond what is politically possible in our system). That is what your original post suggested: "can you say the same about leftist fears that Trump is going to seize power and refuse to step down?"

I (we?) no longer fear he is actually going to attempt this. That he WOULD if he actually COULD is a strong suspicion. There are too many factors that point in that direction. But he can't.

I got your point just fine, thanks. How about going back to the post I was responding to? You are confirming my contention even while protesting that you aren't.