Originally posted by lao tzu
View Post
Announcement
Collapse
Apologetics 301 Guidelines
If you think this is the area where you tell everyone you are sorry for eating their lunch out of the fridge, it probably isn't the place for you
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less
Papyrus found Jesus married
Collapse
X
-
Originally posted by lao tzu View PostThat's "badly."
See also:
http://www.lawprose.org/blog/?p=2233
http://www.quickanddirtytips.com/edu...d-versus-badly
Comment
-
Originally posted by OingoBoingo View PostYou sure about that?
As ever, Jesse
Comment
-
Originally posted by HevenScent View PostAww man is this one of "Those" kind of churches. I didn't see a sign or anything.Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom
Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
sigpic
I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
Comment
-
Originally posted by OingoBoingo View PostBy "you are basing your faith on writings...", I'm assuming you mean a general "you", correct? Because I haven't stated my faith in this thread.
About your dozens and dozens of Gospels claim, we know that there were many after the very first century, but aside from the Gospel of Thomas which is sometimes dated to the 1st century (but usually its dated to the 2nd or 3rd century), I can't think of any non-canonical "Gospels" before the 2nd century. Can you? Which non-canonical works do you feel should have been included in the canon? I think a good argument can be made for the Shepherd of Hermas, the Didache, and maybe 1 Clement, but there were guidelines for canonization, which accounts for why many 2nd, 3rd, 4th century books were not included in the canon. The canonizers attempted to address the very issue you brought up in post #26. One of the guidelines was that a book considered for canonization had to be early.
I agree with you (as I mentioned in post #50) that the books that were eventually canonized were redacted to some degree. Based on your familiarity with ancient texts, what are some of the more surprising redactions and interpolations you're familiar with? I'm aware of the shorter version of Mark, and the insertion of the Pericope Adulterae in John, but I can't think of too many others that change the meaning of the text significantly. Papias mentioned a Hebrew version of Matthew, maybe that was used as a basis for the present Greek version, or maybe he was talking about another Gospel altogether. Who knows. Can you think of anything else off hand?
In post #66 are you saying that there were many gospels found at Qumran, or is that a misreading? Obviously, there weren't any Christian gospels found in Qumran, since the trove there is usually associated with the Essenes, and not Christians.
Gospel is a generic term, not limited to Christian works. There were many gospels in Hebrew and Aramaic. I didn't take the time to memorize them because they were mostly fragments and not whole works. Unfortunately, the Christian "fathers" did a fairly good job of destroying all the existent texts of the time. I remember reading a book written by Irenaeus listing and describing some of the works he had destroyed.
Here's what I think happened, and you can take it for what it's worth: I think that there were some basic, common stories about Jesus that were floating around the first twenty to thirty years after Jesus was executed. I don't think any of them posited that Jesus was G-d. I think they were somewhat messianic (in the Jewish sense of the word).
Then, we have Paul's letters to these house churches spread all over the Mediterranean telling each one something slightly different. Interestingly, not one of Paul's letters mention anything about miracles, virgin births, immaculate conceptions, etc., etc...
Paul is a talented orator and spokesperson for his ideas about a "spiritualized" Jesus - one who came to him in a dream and told him things that he told no one else. A "special knowledge (not in the gnostic sense, though - that comes later).
I think those basic stories were "tweaked" to conform to Paul's ideas - particularly the Gospel attributed to someone named John.
I think after that, the various church leaders work on these gospels more (additions to Luke, for example) and then are sifted and compiled into the Canon we know today (more or less) around the middle of the 4th century CE. For the Holy Roman Catholic Church, the final version was settled at the Council of Trent in the 16th Century CE.
So, it's rather pointless to argue whether this gospel or that gospel was this year or that year. For all intents and purposes, your Christian Testament wasn't complete until the middle of the 4th Century.
Neither you nor I can tell exactly what was written when, nor what all was destroyed. We have only fragments of what your church fathers destroyed.
NORMWhen the missionaries came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land. They said 'Let us pray.' We closed our eyes. When we opened them we had the Bible and they had the land. - Bishop Desmond Tutu
Comment
-
Originally posted by NormATive View PostSince this is a "Christian Owned Web Site," as I am repeatedly reminded, I am assuming most are of the Christian persuasion.
Gospel is a generic term, not limited to Christian works.
There were many gospels in Hebrew and Aramaic.
I didn't take the time to memorize them because they were mostly fragments and not whole works. Unfortunately, the Christian "fathers" did a fairly good job of destroying all the existent texts of the time. I remember reading a book written by Irenaeus listing and describing some of the works he had destroyed.
Here's what I think happened, and you can take it for what it's worth: I think that there were some basic, common stories about Jesus that were floating around the first twenty to thirty years after Jesus was executed. I don't think any of them posited that Jesus was G-d. I think they were somewhat messianic (in the Jewish sense of the word).
Then, we have Paul's letters to these house churches spread all over the Mediterranean telling each one something slightly different. Interestingly, not one of Paul's letters mention anything about miracles, virgin births, immaculate conceptions, etc., etc...
Paul is a talented orator and spokesperson for his ideas about a "spiritualized" Jesus - one who came to him in a dream and told him things that he told no one else. A "special knowledge (not in the gnostic sense, though - that comes later).
I think those basic stories were "tweaked" to conform to Paul's ideas - particularly the Gospel attributed to someone named John.
I think after that, the various church leaders work on these gospels more (additions to Luke, for example) and then are sifted and compiled into the Canon we know today (more or less) around the middle of the 4th century CE. For the Holy Roman Catholic Church, the final version was settled at the Council of Trent in the 16th Century CE.
So, it's rather pointless to argue whether this gospel or that gospel was this year or that year. For all intents and purposes, your Christian Testament wasn't complete until the middle of the 4th Century.
Neither you nor I can tell exactly what was written when, nor what all was destroyed. We have only fragments of what your church fathers destroyed.
NORM
So despite the existence of a number of fragments, and extensive quotes from early church leaders, you believe that the New Testament did not exist, for all intents and purposes, until the Codex Sinaiticus? That's a very interesting theory. I'm not sure how many (if any) scholars in the field of New Testament studies would agree with that theory, but definitely interesting.Last edited by OingoBoingo; 04-18-2014, 11:45 PM.
Comment
-
Oh, before I forget, Normative. Why didn't you answer any of my questions from post #69 in your reply?
You didn't list the names of any non-canonical "gospels" before the 2nd century. Is that because you don't know of any or just because you forgot them all?
Unless I misread you, you claimed that there were gospels found at Qumran, but didn't list the names of those. Did you claim that there were gospels at Qumran because you believe that the word "gospel" is a generic term, and can be applied to any ancient holy text?
You also didn't name any non-canonical books that you feel should have been included in the canon.
And finally, you haven't mentioned any major redactions or interpolations that you feel changed the meaning of the received text in a significant way.Last edited by OingoBoingo; 04-18-2014, 09:14 AM.
Comment
-
Originally posted by OingoBoingo View PostAnd finally, you haven't mentioned any major redactions or interpolations that you feel changed the meaning of the received text in a significant way.Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom
Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
sigpic
I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
Comment
-
Originally posted by OingoBoingo View PostYou didn't list the names of any non-canonical "gospels" before the 2nd century. Is that because you don't know of any or just because you forgot them all?
Rule of the War of the Children of Light Against the Children of Darkness (1QM 1QWar Scroll), Son of God' Text, and The Manual of Discipline (1QS, 1Q28), Book of Jubilees (1Q17), Book of Noah (1Q19-1QNoah), Aramaic Testament of Levi from the Cairo Genizah (1QTLevi ar), and this one is probably the most interesting: Book of Giants (1Q24-1QEnGiants arb) - there is a large section of it found in the Book of Enoch (rejected from the Jewish canon).
Originally posted by OingoBoingo View PostUnless I misread you, you claimed that there were gospels found at Qumran, but didn't list the names of those. Did you claim that there were gospels at Qumran because you believe that the word "gospel" is a generic term, and can be applied to any ancient holy text?
Originally posted by OingoBoingo View PostYou also didn't name any non-canonical books that you feel should have been included in the canon.
Originally posted by OingoBoingo View PostAnd finally, you haven't mentioned any major redactions or interpolations that you feel changed the meaning of the received text in a significant way.
There are three that bear witness in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. I John 5:7
Let the one who is without sin among you be the first to cast a stone at her. - John 8:7
"The most ancient authorities lack 7.53—8.11; other authorities add the passage here or after 7.36 or after 21.25 or after Luke 21.38, with variations of text; some mark the passage as doubtful. Scholars generally agree that this story was not originally part of the Gospel of John." (My emphasis added) - p 1830 Harper Collins Study Bible
NORMWhen the missionaries came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land. They said 'Let us pray.' We closed our eyes. When we opened them we had the Bible and they had the land. - Bishop Desmond Tutu
Comment
Related Threads
Collapse
Topics | Statistics | Last Post | ||
---|---|---|---|---|
Started by Hypatia_Alexandria, Today, 08:31 AM
|
12 responses
47 views
0 likes
|
Last Post
by One Bad Pig
Today, 03:19 PM
|
||
Started by Neptune7, 04-15-2024, 06:54 AM
|
25 responses
144 views
0 likes
|
Last Post
by Cerebrum123
Today, 08:31 AM
|
||
Started by whag, 04-09-2024, 01:04 PM
|
101 responses
537 views
0 likes
|
Last Post
by rogue06
Today, 01:57 PM
|
||
Started by whag, 04-07-2024, 10:17 AM
|
39 responses
251 views
0 likes
|
Last Post
by tabibito
04-12-2024, 02:58 PM
|
||
Started by whag, 03-27-2024, 03:01 PM
|
154 responses
1,016 views
0 likes
|
Last Post
by whag
04-12-2024, 12:39 PM
|
Comment