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How Do We Know that God Exists?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Scrawly View Post
    I'm not arguing that we as Christian's ought to attempt to prove God's existence. I am stating that we cannot prove the existence of God to anyone, including ourselves. What separates us as Christian's from the unbelieving world is that unbeliever's reject the gospel and Christian's accept the gospel, based on faith, not proof. As Christian's, our interpretation of why we accept the gospel is partly due to the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit, another article of faith, not proof. Naturally, therefore, we will at times doubt (some frequently, others less so) the existence of God (or our presuppositions), elements of the gospel, parts of the bible, etc. because many of these things fall into the category of "belief" and not "proof" -- because we lack rational certainty -- but that doesn't mean we cannot have faith. Some of us do, by the grace of God, I believe.
    It seems to me that you're both right in a way. Arguably, acknowledging the limits of human perception and knowledge (we're not omniscient) there's a point where we sort of have to admit that we can't be absolutely certain about anything. We can't be 100% certain that we are nothing more than brains in a vat, or the product of some alien's dream, but I do think that the Christian can claim that belief in God is properly basic, and through the witness of the Holy Spirit to our spirit, can claim to have proof that God not only exists, but that we are his children. This proof may not be convincing to anyone but to the individual making the claim, but I do believe it still counts as a proof of sorts. In this sense, I think we can claim to be certain that God exists inasmuch as we can claim to have certain knowledge about anything; Probably as much as we can claim that our own minds exists and that other minds exists. So, while this may not be 100% certainty, it might as well be.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by psstein View Post
      See the title, but this is a question that I've been thinking about recently. More specifically, while Aquinas' Five Ways are very strong arguments, what necessarily makes them apply to reality?
      I don't really have much useful to say about the OP, as concerns Aquinas' Five Ways, but it's interesting that you decided to bring this up. Just yesterday I listened to the latest Unbelievable? podcast which is directly relevant to this topic. If you're not familiar with it, Unbelievable? is a Christian British radio program that coordinates informal debates between skeptics and Christians (and sometimes Christians vs. Christians, or orthodox Christians vs. unorthodox). They've had some amazing guests on the show over the years (as well as some not so amazing guests). This weekend the debate was between the Catholic philosopher Ed Feser, who specializes in Thomism, and Cambridge atheist philosopher, Arif Ahmed on "5 Proofs of the Existence of God ". As with most debates on Unbelievable?, the show was a bit frustrating because of its time constraints. Feser, who's a bit verbose, was never, in my opinion, able to fully explain his position, and reply to Ahmed's criticisms, and in the end they were only able to cover two proofs. But Feser did handle himself well, and was able to promote his new book by the same title "Five Proofs of the Existence of God". I haven't checked it out outside of the debate, but it sounds exactly like what you're looking for.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
        For some reason, I like working back from the Resurrection. If you establish the reliability of the Gospels and examine all the possible explanations for the empty tomb and the Twelve's reports of seeing a risen Jesus, then the Resurrection is the explanation that makes the most sense. If the Resurrection happened, then Jesus is Who He claimed to be and god exists. Of course the best evidence is yet to come. It will be hard to doubt God's existence when He will be the light source for the New Jerusalem! Well, a really stupid fundy atheist at the final judgement could try to claim that God is somehow like one of those fake gods that are merely aliens from Star Trek, but I'm sure God can easily disprove something so stupid.
        The death and resurrection of Jesus Christ must be grounded in the biblical narrative of creation, fall, and redemption. I do not see the scriptural authors encouraging believers to expend energy attempting to demonstrate to non-believers the reality of God. Scripturally, the existence of God is taken for granted. It is something humans already recognise via the created order (i.e. natural revelation). Conversely, the story of redemption is not intuitively known, but must be made known in some way supernaturally (i.e. supernatural revelation). Whilst one can (and does) know that God created the material world quite apart from special revelation, such is not the case regarding the good news of Jesus Christ.

        (As an aside, I rather detest the term ‘fundie atheist’.)
        For Neo-Remonstration (Arminian/Remonstrant ruminations): <https://theremonstrant.blogspot.com>

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Adrift View Post
          It seems to me that you're both right in a way. Arguably, acknowledging the limits of human perception and knowledge (we're not omniscient) there's a point where we sort of have to admit that we can't be absolutely certain about anything. We can't be 100% certain that we are nothing more than brains in a vat, or the product of some alien's dream, but I do think that the Christian can claim that belief in God is properly basic, and through the witness of the Holy Spirit to our spirit, can claim to have proof that God not only exists, but that we are his children. This proof may not be convincing to anyone but to the individual making the claim, but I do believe it still counts as a proof of sorts. In this sense, I think we can claim to be certain that God exists inasmuch as we can claim to have certain knowledge about anything; Probably as much as we can claim that our own minds exists and that other minds exists. So, while this may not be 100% certainty, it might as well be.
          I would be comfortable saying that I don't know God exists, but I believe He does. Further, I would say that I believe I know God through His Son Jesus, but I cannot be certain of this, yet I have faith, despite doubting, relatively frequently.

          In regards to your statement: "I think we can claim to be certain that God exists inasmuch as we can claim to have certain knowledge about anything"; well, I would have to respectfully disagree with that statement. I won't push the issue however because this naturally leads to highly abstract philosophical discussions that I have little to no interest delving into.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Scrawly View Post
            In regards to your statement: […] [emphasis added]
            <https://www.collinsdictionary.com/di...with-regard-to>
            <http://www.dictionary.com/e/with-reg...th-regards-to/>
            <https://www.grammarbook.com/homonyms...regards-to.asp>
            <http://grammarist.com/usage/regard-regards/>
            <https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/de...ing)_regard_to>
            <http://www.quickanddirtytips.com/edu...versus-regards>
            For Neo-Remonstration (Arminian/Remonstrant ruminations): <https://theremonstrant.blogspot.com>

            Comment


            • #21
              But God argues for his own existence!

              Source: Is 46:9–10

              Remember the former things, those of long ago;
              I am God, and there is no other;
              I am God, and there is none like me.
              I make known the end from the beginning,
              from ancient times, what is still to come.
              I say, ‘My purpose will stand,
              and I will do all that I please.’

              © Copyright Original Source


              God makes known his presence through fulfilled prophecy, through making known what would be impossible for ordinary people to know.

              Source: Is 43:9–13

              Which of their gods foretold this
              and proclaimed to us the former things?
              Let them bring in their witnesses to prove they were right,
              so that others may hear and say, “It is true.”
              “You are my witnesses,” declares the LORD,
              “and my servant whom I have chosen,
              so that you may know and believe me
              and understand that I am he.
              Before me no god was formed,
              nor will there be one after me.
              I, even I, am the LORD,
              and apart from me there is no savior.
              I have revealed and saved and proclaimed—
              I, and not some foreign god among you.
              You are my witnesses,” declares the LORD, “that I am God.”

              © Copyright Original Source



              Blessings,
              Lee
              "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

              Comment


              • #22
                I have to admit that this question has been taxing me lately.

                I have found myself actually being angry that we cannot know with certainty. To be honest, I am jealous of those that feel certainty in their faith.

                I know that faith is the expression of trust and love but it is hard for me at times.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by element771 View Post
                  I have to admit that this question has been taxing me lately.

                  I have found myself actually being angry that we cannot know with certainty. To be honest, I am jealous of those that feel certainty in their faith.

                  I know that faith is the expression of trust and love but it is hard for me at times.
                  If memory serves, you've been struggling with this for years. What are your major roadblocks? Are there particular people or events that are preventing you from bridging the gap? The fact that you've been struggling with this for so long makes me think that there's more to the story than simple intellectual assent.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                    If memory serves, you've been struggling with this for years. What are your major roadblocks? Are there particular people or events that are preventing you from bridging the gap? The fact that you've been struggling with this for so long makes me think that there's more to the story than simple intellectual assent.
                    Hi Adrift,

                    Thanks for the question. I will now go a bit into my history.

                    Soon after my daughter was born, I had a minor health scare that sent me down a path of pretty severe anxiety. I was Catholic all of my life and had not really studied anything to be frank. I didn't know why I believed what I did. I decided to start reading and learning, as well as seeking counseling for the anxiety. I read everything that I could get my hands on. I didn't want to bias my search so I read about all aspects of theology, atheism, etc. After many months, I settled my anxiety through a mixture of counseling and medication. I was diagnosed with Generalized Anxiety Disorder, mild OCD, and potentially ADD. I continued to study and realized that there were real, tangible arguments for believing in God. That was about 10 years ago give or take when this started. I relapsed once after debating one of the atheists here (I think it was Tass) and I was thrown down to rabbit hole once again. But after that, I just accepted that I believed and continued to learn as much as I could. I debated with atheist colleagues of mine for a while after that and I was steadfast in my faith.

                    I then obtained a faculty position and all of my mental energy went to building my lab and obtaining funding. My anxiety reared its head again about 3 years ago and I went back to counseling.

                    Fast forward till last year. I finally obtained funding (Thanks be to God) and everything was going great. I was a member of a church here and am currently an elder in that Church. Then suddenly on New Years day...I felt uneasy. I had been going through a cycle of unrest before this for quite some time but I didn't know what to make of it. I even had reduced my meds because I thought I had it all figured out...professionally, spiritually, and personally. I never thought that I would be plagued with doubts again, then it hit me like a shovel in the face. My anxiety came roaring back and the doubts started flooding in. Questions like: What if I am wrong? What if life is meaningless? Is Christianity too good to be true? (basically a lot of emotional doubt).

                    When I went through my first crisis of faith, I came out with a much stronger faith and a commitment to becoming a scientist (as I thought that is what I was called to do). I have to admit that going through it this time, I am puzzled as to what the lesson is this time. Honestly, I am just scared that I am deluding myself. I wonder if I shouldn't have become a scientist because it is hard to not apply science to everything (something that I know that you can't do). My job is to continually question everything and some times that spills over into my spiritual life at times.
                    Last edited by element771; 01-19-2018, 10:34 AM.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by element771 View Post
                      Hi Adrift,

                      Thanks for the question. I will now go a bit into my history.

                      Soon after my daughter was born, I had a minor health scare that sent me down a path of pretty severe anxiety. I was Catholic all of my life and had not really studied anything to be frank. I didn't know why I believed what I did. I decided to start reading and learning, as well as seeking counseling for the anxiety. I read everything that I could get my hands on. I didn't want to bias my search so I read about all aspects of theology, atheism, etc. After many months, I settled my anxiety through a mixture of counseling and medication. I was diagnosed with Generalized Anxiety Disorder, mild OCD, and potentially ADD. I continued to study and realized that there were real, tangible arguments for believing in God. That was about 10 years ago give or take when this started. I relapsed once after debating one of the atheists here (I think it was Tass) and I was thrown down to rabbit hole once again. But after that, I just accepted that I believed and continued to learn as much as I could. I debated with atheist colleagues of mine for a while after that and I was steadfast in my faith.

                      I then obtained a faculty position and all of my mental energy went to building my lab and obtaining funding. My anxiety reared its head again about 3 years ago and I went back to counseling.

                      Fast forward till last year. I finally obtained funding (Thanks be to God) and everything was going great. I was a member of a church here and am currently an elder in that Church. Then suddenly on New Years day...I felt uneasy. I had been going through a cycle of unrest before this for quite some time but I didn't know what to make of it. I even had reduced my meds because I thought I had it all figured out...professionally, spiritually, and personally. I never thought that I would be plagued with doubts again, then it hit me like a shovel in the face. My anxiety came roaring back and the doubts started flooding in. Questions like: What if I am wrong? What if life is meaningless? Is Christianity too good to be true? (basically a lot of emotional doubt).

                      When I went through my first crisis of faith, I came out with a much stronger faith and a commitment to becoming a scientist (as I thought that is what I was called to do). I have to admit that going through it this time, I am puzzled as to what the lesson is this time. Honestly, I am just scared that I am deluding myself. I wonder if I shouldn't have become a scientist because it is hard to not apply science to everything (something that I know that you can't do). My job is to continually question everything and some times that spills over into my spiritual life at times.
                      Here is my take. What if I am wrong and there is no God?

                      Then I would not change a thing. My life is much better and I am a better person now then when I was not a believer. Others have also benefited from my being a believer because I have been a more generous person, kinder, more loving, than I was before. If I die and there is no God, I have left the world a better place than I would have otherwise. And I would not even know that I was wrong because I would not exist to know it. So I believe. If I am wrong so what?

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                        Here is my take. What if I am wrong and there is no God?

                        Then I would not change a thing. My life is much better and I am a better person now then when I was not a believer. Others have also benefited from my being a believer because I have been a more generous person, kinder, more loving, than I was before. If I die and there is no God, I have left the world a better place than I would have otherwise. And I would not even know that I was wrong because I would not exist to know it. So I believe. If I am wrong so what?
                        I guess my ultimate fear is the existential terror that comes with nihilism.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by element771 View Post
                          I guess my ultimate fear is the existential terror that comes with nihilism.
                          That nothing has meaning if there is no God? The meaning is what you put into it. To you your family has meaning. You love them, they love you, your children will grow up and love others and have children. The meaning is intrinsic in how they spend their lives. If we spend our lives doing what God wants, then we are accomplishing his goals, even if we find out he doesn't exist.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            ultimately you can't know God doesn't exist so live your life as though he does. It will be better both for yourself and those around you.
                            Last edited by Sparko; 01-19-2018, 12:08 PM.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by element771 View Post
                              Hi Adrift,

                              Thanks for the question. I will now go a bit into my history.

                              Soon after my daughter was born, I had a minor health scare that sent me down a path of pretty severe anxiety. I was Catholic all of my life and had not really studied anything to be frank. I didn't know why I believed what I did. I decided to start reading and learning, as well as seeking counseling for the anxiety. I read everything that I could get my hands on. I didn't want to bias my search so I read about all aspects of theology, atheism, etc. After many months, I settled my anxiety through a mixture of counseling and medication. I was diagnosed with Generalized Anxiety Disorder, mild OCD, and potentially ADD. I continued to study and realized that there were real, tangible arguments for believing in God. That was about 10 years ago give or take when this started. I relapsed once after debating one of the atheists here (I think it was Tass) and I was thrown down to rabbit hole once again. But after that, I just accepted that I believed and continued to learn as much as I could. I debated with atheist colleagues of mine for a while after that and I was steadfast in my faith.

                              I then obtained a faculty position and all of my mental energy went to building my lab and obtaining funding. My anxiety reared its head again about 3 years ago and I went back to counseling.

                              Fast forward till last year. I finally obtained funding (Thanks be to God) and everything was going great. I was a member of a church here and am currently an elder in that Church. Then suddenly on New Years day...I felt uneasy. I had been going through a cycle of unrest before this for quite some time but I didn't know what to make of it. I even had reduced my meds because I thought I had it all figured out...professionally, spiritually, and personally. I never thought that I would be plagued with doubts again, then it hit me like a shovel in the face. My anxiety came roaring back and the doubts started flooding in. Questions like: What if I am wrong? What if life is meaningless? Is Christianity too good to be true? (basically a lot of emotional doubt).

                              When I went through my first crisis of faith, I came out with a much stronger faith and a commitment to becoming a scientist (as I thought that is what I was called to do). I have to admit that going through it this time, I am puzzled as to what the lesson is this time. Honestly, I am just scared that I am deluding myself. I wonder if I shouldn't have become a scientist because it is hard to not apply science to everything (something that I know that you can't do). My job is to continually question everything and some times that spills over into my spiritual life at times.
                              Ok, this puts some things into perspective. Thanks!

                              Yeah, there is absolutely nothing wrong with asking questions. As I'm sure you know, unlike many religions/ideologies, Christianity openly invites question asking, and keep in memory that it was because of Christianity's view of nature as a celebration of God's glory that led directly to scientific inquiry, and the sciences as we appreciate them today. There's a great book on this by James Hannam called God's Philosophers that you might be interested in. I do think though, that there is a point where question asking can become unhealthy. Where you ask questions until you've started to question your own sanity and the very world around you. That's not healthy no matter what your worldview is. There are some things that you're just going to have to put on a burner, and say, "okay, I'll get back to that when I can". I've often found that those sorts of questions do eventually get answered, and usually in the most unexpected ways.

                              As I've advised you several times in the past, though, there has to come a point in your life when you've just decided to commit to something, or else you'll drive yourself insane. Again, this is true for all sorts of things, not just belief in God. Do you marry the woman you love and have been dating for 5 years, or should you continue getting to know her? Will she ever really love you as much as you love her? What if she doesn't love you and is just saying she is? What if you don't really love her, and you're being selfish because you just want to be wanted? What if she's not the right one, and there's a perfect woman out there someplace just waiting for you to bump into her? Etc., etc., etc. At some point you just make the point to commit, or else choose to worry and frustrate yourself indefinitely and find yourself alone forever. That doesn't mean you just jump into any serious situation, circumstance, or decision without really taking the time to consider it, nor does it mean that you'll never occasionally have a little doubt or ask "what if I had made another choice", but that's different than years of serious back and forth where the foundation of the whole thing is in jeopardy. Though rarely effective in daily evangelical apologetics (in my opinion), perhaps here is where something like Pascal's Wager can be used to effect...the idea that, all things being relatively equal, if you're stuck between accepting that the Christian God exists, or does not exist, what have you got to gain, what have you got to lose?

                              At any rate, in my opinion, this is not really something posters at a webforum are really equipped to handle. Brother, I love you, and if I could break off a chunk of my faith and give it to you I would, but this is really where you need to get with your pastor and/or a church counselor, and your church family and really hammer things out there with people who can talk to you eye to eye, and who know you, or can get to know you in a much more intimate and personable way. There's just far too much anonymity in an online message forum to be able to impart the type of encouragement and building up that you need, and if you're not getting that sort of treatment at your current church, perhaps you need to think of finding another place.

                              Also, let me repeat, in times of doubt, Christian/atheist debate forums are definitely not the place to be. Too many times I've seen people who are shaky in their faith come to places like this, and then allow skeptical arguments seep into their core, and completely frustrate them to the point of apostasy. It's not that those skeptical arguments are that great, most of them are incredibly simplistic and easily answered, but when you're already in a sort of fearful and desperate mental state, you're unconsciously giving them purchase. Skeptical arguments, even the bad ones, are intended to chip away at your faith, and you expose yourself to that sort of nonsense long enough, they'll do just that. Look, we're not fighting a battle of flesh and blood here, there is a spiritual adversary in this world whose primary goal it is to fill people with despair, and to frustrate our relationship with our creator. Don't tempt the adversary by giving him purchase; Fight him with the tools that Paul tells us that God has given us in Ephesians 6.

                              You are more than a conqueror. You can do all things through Christ Jesus who strengthens you. Your God is a mighty God, and his will will be done on earth as it is in heaven. You know where to find answers to hard questions, be anxious for nothing and step out in faith knowing that God has proven himself over and over again to be trustworthy.
                              Last edited by Adrift; 01-19-2018, 11:54 AM.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                                Ok, this puts some things into perspective. Thanks!

                                Yeah, there is absolutely nothing wrong with asking questions. As I'm sure you know, unlike many religions/ideologies, Christianity openly invites question asking, and keep in memory that it was because of Christianity's view of nature as a celebration of God's glory that led directly to scientific inquiry, and the sciences as we appreciate them today. There's a great book on this by James Hannam called God's Philosophers that you might be interested in. I do think though, that there is a point where question asking can become unhealthy. Where you ask questions until you've started to question your own sanity and the very world around you. That's not healthy no matter what your worldview is. There are some things that you're just going to have to put on a burner, and say, "okay, I'll get back to that when I can". I've often found that those sorts of questions do eventually get answered, and usually in the most unexpected ways.

                                As I've advised you several times in the past, though, there has to come a point in your life when you've just decided to commit to something, or else you'll drive yourself insane. Again, this is true for all sorts of things, not just belief in God. Do you marry the woman you love and have been dating for 5 years, or should you continue getting to know her? Will she ever really love you as much as you love her? What if she doesn't love you and is just saying she is? What if you don't really love her, and you're being selfish because you just want to be wanted? What if she's not the right one, and there's a perfect woman out there someplace just waiting for you to bump into her? Etc., etc., etc. At some point you just make the point to commit, or else choose to worry and frustrate yourself indefinitely and find yourself alone forever. That doesn't mean you just jump into any serious situation, circumstance, or decision without really taking the time to consider it, nor does it mean that you'll never occasionally have a little doubt or ask "what if I had made another choice", but that's different than years of serious back and forth where the foundation of the whole thing is in jeopardy. Though rarely effective in daily evangelical apologetics (in my opinion), perhaps here is where something like Pascal's Wager can be used to effect...the idea that, all things being relatively equal, if you're stuck between accepting that the Christian God exists, or does not exist, what have you got to gain, what have you got to lose?

                                At any rate, in my opinion, this is not really something posters at a webforum are really equipped to handle. Brother, I love you, and if I could break off a chunk of my faith and give it to you I would, but this is really where you need to get with your pastor and/or a church counselor, and your church family and really hammer things out there with people who can talk to you eye to eye, and who know you, or can get to know you in a much more intimate and personable way. There's just far too much anonymity in an online message forum to be able to impart the type of encouragement and building up that you need, and if you're not getting that sort of treatment at your current church, perhaps you need to think of finding another place.

                                Also, let me repeat, in times of doubt, Christian/atheist debate forums are definitely not the place to be. Too many times I've seen people who are shaky in their faith come to places like this, and then allow skeptical arguments seep into their core, and completely frustrate them to the point of apostasy. It's not that those skeptical arguments are that great, most of them are incredibly simplistic and easily answered, but when you're already in a sort of fearful and desperate mental state, you're unconsciously giving them purchase. Skeptical arguments, even the bad ones, are intended to chip away at your faith, and you expose yourself to that sort of nonsense long enough, they'll do just that. Look, we're not fighting a battle of flesh and blood here, there is a spiritual adversary in this world whose primary goal it is to fill people with despair, and to frustrate our relationship with our creator. Don't tempt the adversary by giving him purchase; Fight him with the tools that Paul tells us that God has given us in Ephesians 6.

                                You are more than a conqueror. You can do all things through Christ Jesus who strengthens you. Your God is a mighty God, and his will will be done on earth as it is in heaven. You know where to find answers to hard questions, be anxious for nothing and step out in faith knowing that God has proven himself over and over again to be trustworthy.
                                Thanks for the words of encouragement and the love goes both ways. I agree that all of this attempts at certainty are foolish and are certainly not Biblical. I am trying to bend God to my will as opposed to bending to his.

                                Believe me when I say this....I wish that I could accept a chunk of your faith, I would take it in a heart beat.

                                I have spoken to my pastor but I have to admit that I am not sure it helped. I think I may be more familiar with the apologetical literature than he is. I have taken to watching youtube videos of NT Wright, Keller, WLC, etc as a way to mitigate my doubts. I have also purchased several books on doubt to read.

                                Comment

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