How Do We Know that God Exists?

[The Remonstrant]

See the title, but this is a question that I've been thinking about recently. More specifically, while Aquinas' Five Ways are very strong arguments, what necessarily makes them apply to reality?

I have to admit that this question has been taxing me lately.

I have found myself actually being angry that we cannot know with certainty. To be honest, I am jealous of those that feel certainty in their faith.

I know that faith is the expression of trust and love but it is hard for me at times.

http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...ht-of-the-Soul>).

[Adrift]

I guess my ultimate fear is the existential terror that comes with nihilism.

This post sort of spoke to me that I didn't get into my over-long reply. I've mentioned in the past that if I truly believed that God did not exist (in any form or faith-based worldview), I would likely become a nihilist of sorts. I think nihilism is really the only true option for the atheist, if he were honest with himself. But something in me simply cannot go there. When I look at the glory of creation, when I think upon the great works of humanity, I can't help but think that there is something just truly powerful, and divine there. Something filled with purpose and value. Humanity has real, intrinsic value. That's something I simply cannot shake. I see everywhere, especially in our meekness, forgiveness, self-sacrifice, the imprint of God. We are truly made in the image of God. In my very core I feel that it takes a greater leap of faith to be an out and out atheist than it does to believe in the existence of God. Anthony Flew, I think, is representative of a great thinkers who had to abandon his atheism to the glory of God's creation. Here's a very short list of other notable individuals who felt the need to abandon their atheism/agnosticism for the divine (some surprisingly so).

element, some books you might find uplifting (if you haven't already read them) might include Collins' The Language of God: A Scientist Presents Evidence for Belief, Alvin Plantinga's Where the Conflict Really Lies: Science, Religion, and Naturalism, William Lane Craig's Time and Eternity, Alister McGrath's A Scientific Theology (or pretty much any of his works), the aforementioned James Hannam's God's Philosophers, and maybe the works of Edward Fesser (particularly the aforementioned Five Proofs of the Existence of God). There is no end to the list of great thinkers who've written works on the subject of the OP. Us Christians are a pretty smart bunch.

[The Remonstrant]

element, some books you might find uplifting (if you haven't already read them) might include Collins' The Language of God: A Scientist Presents Evidence for Belief[;] Alvin Plantinga's Where the Conflict Really Lies: Science, Religion, and Naturalism, William Lane Craig's Time and Eternity[;] Alister McGrath's A Scientific Theology (or pretty much any of his works)[;] the aforementioned James Hannam's God's Philosophers[;] and maybe the works of Edward Fesser (particularly the aforementioned Five Proofs of the Existence of God

[Teallaura]

You're too late - he bleeds ink and his eyes have an addiction to print.

[Adrift]

I'm not sure what you think this passage is referring to. It's almost certainly not referring to commentaries on scripture or the books I've recommended (as far as I can tell), but rather the context seems to imply books of wisdom commonly available at the time. It must be kept in mind that Qoheleth speaks with two minds throughout the Ecclesiastes. He talks of human wisdom without God, and the wisdom one might gain with God in mind. As the theologian Warren Wiersbe puts it,

Source: Be Satisfied (Ecclesiastes): Looking for the Answer to the Meaning of Life, by Warren W. Wiersbe

On the surface verse 12 seems to be a negative view of learning, but such is not the case. The statement is a warning to the student not to go beyond what God has written in His Word. Indeed, there are many books and studying them can be a wearisome chore. But don't permit man's books to rob you of God's wisdom. "Be warned, my son, of anything in addition to them [the words of the wise]" (v. 12 NIV). These "nails" are sure, and you can depend on them. Don't test Gods' truth by the "many books" written by men; test men's books by the truth of God's Word.

© Copyright Original Source

[element771]

You're too late - he bleeds ink and his eyes have an addiction to print.

Can you elaborate?

[element771]

But something in me simply cannot go there.

I can't help but think that there is something just truly powerful, and divine there. Something filled with purpose and value. Humanity has real, intrinsic value. That's something I simply cannot shake.

I think that these two snips describes my feelings pretty well.

[Teallaura]

Can you elaborate?

Adrift is addicted to reading.

[The Remonstrant]

I'm not sure what you think this passage is referring to. It's almost certainly not referring to commentaries on scripture or the books I've recommended (as far as I can tell), but rather the context seems to imply books of wisdom commonly available at the time. It must be kept in mind that Qoheleth speaks with two minds throughout the Ecclesiastes. He talks of human wisdom without God, and the wisdom one might gain with God in mind. As the theologian Warren Wiersbe puts it,

Source: Be Satisfied (Ecclesiastes): Looking for the Answer to the Meaning of Life, by Warren W. Wiersbe

On the surface verse 12 seems to be a negative view of learning, but such is not the case. The statement is a warning to the student not to go beyond what God has written in His Word. Indeed, there are many books and studying them can be a wearisome chore. But don't permit man's books to rob you of God's wisdom. "Be warned, my son, of anything in addition to them [the words of the wise]" (v. 12 NIV). These "nails" are sure, and you can depend on them. Don't test Gods' truth by the "many books" written by men; test men's books by the truth of God's Word.

© Copyright Original Source

My purpose for quoting Ecclesiastes 12.12b was to say little more than this:

What Ecclesiastes says about writing and reading can be confirmed by every scholar who has ever lived. Already in the ancient world, royal libraries were full of books. Today more than a million new books are published every year. So what the Bible says is true: of the making of many books there is no end, and studying even some of them is enough to wear anyone out. (Philip Graham Ryken, Ecclesiastes: Why Everything Matters, Preaching the Word [Wheaton, IL: Crossway, 2010], p. 279)

I do not take this verse to be an endorsement of aversion to learning or reading books. (See my above comment in this thread on not intending to promote anti-intellectualism; message # 31.) It is unlikely that we are at great variance with each other on this matter. Please take no offence.

[Thoughtful Monk]

Maybe this got said somewhere in the thread. It is worth noting that the Bible takes God's existence as a given. Looking at the evidence can help and there are plenty of stores like Josh McDowell and Lee Strobel that demonstrate that the evidence is there and can convince people. I find there is always a but and one can get lost searching the evidence without finding a satisfying answer.

"You must have often wondered why the Enemy does not make more use of His power to be sensibly present to human souls in any degree He chooses and at any moment. But you now see that the Irresistible and the Indisputable are the two weapons which the very nature of His scheme forbids Him to use. Merely to override a human will (as His felt presence in any but the faintest and most mitigated degree would certainly do) would be for Him useless. He cannot ravish. He can only woo." - His Abysmal Sublimity, Undersecretary Screwtape. (Letter #8).

[The Remonstrant]

Maybe this got said somewhere in the thread. It is worth noting that the Bible takes God's existence as a given. Looking at the evidence can help and there are plenty of stores like Josh McDowell and Lee Strobel that demonstrate that the evidence is there and can convince people. I find there is always a but and one can get lost searching the evidence without finding a satisfying answer. [par. 1, emphasis added]

Yes; see messages #11 and #18 above.

[Rushing Jaws]

I'm not arguing that we as Christian's ought to attempt to prove God's existence. I am stating that we cannot prove the existence of God to anyone, including ourselves.

What separates us as Christian's from the unbelieving world is that unbeliever's reject the gospel and Christian's accept the gospel, based on faith, not proof. As Christian's, our interpretation of why we accept the gospel is partly due to the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit, another article of faith, not proof. Naturally, therefore, we will at times doubt (some frequently, others less so) the existence of God (or our presuppositions), elements of the gospel, parts of the bible, etc. because many of these things fall into the category of "belief" and not "proof" -- because we lack rational certainty -- but that doesn't mean we cannot have faith. Some of us do, by the grace of God, I believe.

Well said I think people can have a true certainty of God, that is incommunicable, and that cannot be articulated, but that nonetheless has authority for those who receive it.

[Rushing Jaws]

Maybe this got said somewhere in the thread. It is worth noting that the Bible takes God's existence as a given. Looking at the evidence can help and there are plenty of stores like Josh McDowell and Lee Strobel that demonstrate that the evidence is there and can convince people. I find there is always a but and one can get lost searching the evidence without finding a satisfying answer.

"You must have often wondered why the Enemy does not make more use of His power to be sensibly present to human souls in any degree He chooses and at any moment. But you now see that the Irresistible and the Indisputable are the two weapons which the very nature of His scheme forbids Him to use. Merely to override a human will (as His felt presence in any but the faintest and most mitigated degree would certainly do) would be for Him useless. He cannot ravish. He can only woo." - His Abysmal Sublimity, Undersecretary Screwtape. (Letter #8).

I often wish that the Gospels & Acts showed at least one encounter between an atheist and Christ or His Apostles. Acts 17 is the closest we are given, but there is no actual exchange of views between Apostles and atheists; only a very brief reference in Acts 17.18. Mentioning the Stoics & Epicureans is not the same as having an Epicurean try conclusions with St Paul.

[seer]

I guess my ultimate fear is the existential terror that comes with nihilism.

Just a side note, all my years as an agnostic (until my late 30s) I never really feared death, why fear nothingness? Oblivion? I wouldn't know anything. But when I became a Christian, and came to believe in a literal heaven and hell - then I began to tremble. What if, in the end, Christ says to me - "depart I never knew you..."