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Thread: A temporal gift.

  1. #31
    tWebber tabibito's Avatar
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    Which brings us back to 1 John 1:7-2:2. The passage that includes such comments as 8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him:

    Ephesians 2:8-10 Ah yes - we are saved by grace. It pays to investigate the results of taking that for granted.

    Romans 4:5. What law and what works are referred to here? The law of Christ, as mentioned in Galatians 6:2? Doesn't seem so.

    Romans 11:6 And again - which works is Paul referring to here?

    Romans 7:24 to Romans 8:2
    First person singular present active indicative throughout. In short, the verbs are in the form of a simple present.

    The simple present has has three possible uses:
    1/ simple present (not particularly likely)
    2/ continuous/imperfect present (very likely)
    3/ historical present (fairly likely)

    The historical present might be used to establish a contrast between past and present circumstances. Where it is so used, there will be contradictions (inherent in contrasts) between the descriptions of the prior condition and the current condition. Are such contradictions present in Romans 7 and 8? Assuredly so.

    "7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin" contradicts both 7:5 (in which Paul claims to be a member of a group that is not in the flesh), and 8:9.

    7:14 εγω δε σαρκικος - I am fleshly (i.e. controlled by the influence of the flesh)
    7:5 οτε γαρ ημεν εν τη σαρκι τα παθηματα των αμαρτιων - for when we were in the flesh, subject to the influence of sins ("were" is supplied by οτε/when)
    8:9 υμεις δε ουκ εστε εν σαρκι αλλ εν πνευματι - but you are not in the flesh, but in the spirit.

    So then - attempting to use the section containing 7:14 doesn't demonstrate that Paul was debtor to the flesh, but it may demonstrate that he had been.
    Further, even if it was saying that Paul was debtor to the flesh, it by no means demonstrates that to be true for others.

    Either Paul contradicts himself, or you have been misinformed regarding the proper reading of the latter part of Romans 7.
    Last edited by tabibito; 12-18-2017 at 05:16 AM.
    και εκζητησατε με και ευρησετε με οτι ζητησετε με εν ολη καρδία υμων

  2. #32
    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tabibito View Post
    Which brings us back to 1 John 1:7-2:2. The passage that includes such comments as 8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him:

    Ephesians 2:8-10 Ah yes - we are saved by grace. It pays to investigate the results of taking that for granted.

    Romans 4:5. What law and what works are referred to here? The law of Christ, as mentioned in Galatians 6:2? Doesn't seem so.

    Romans 11:6 And again - which works is Paul referring to here?

    Romans 7:24 to Romans 8:2
    First person singular present active indicative throughout. In short, the verbs are in the form of a simple present.

    The simple present has has three possible uses:
    1/ simple present (not particularly likely)
    2/ continuous/imperfect present (very likely)
    3/ historical present (fairly likely)

    The historical present might be used to establish a contrast between past and present circumstances. Where it is so used, there will be contradictions (inherent in contrasts) between the descriptions of the prior condition and the current condition. Are such contradictions present in Romans 7 and 8? Assuredly so.

    "7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin" contradicts both 7:5 (in which Paul claims to be a member of a group that is not in the flesh), and 8:9.

    7:14 εγω δε σαρκικος - I am fleshly (i.e. controlled by the influence of the flesh)
    7:5 οτε γαρ ημεν εν τη σαρκι τα παθηματα των αμαρτιων - for when we were in the flesh, subject to the influence of sins ("were" is supplied by οτε/when)
    8:9 υμεις δε ουκ εστε εν σαρκι αλλ εν πνευματι - but you are not in the flesh, but in the spirit.

    So then - attempting to use the section containing 7:14 doesn't demonstrate that Paul was debtor to the flesh, but it may demonstrate that he had been.
    Further, even if it was saying that Paul was debtor to the flesh, it by no means demonstrates that to be true for others.

    Either Paul contradicts himself, or you have been misinformed regarding the proper reading of the latter part of Romans 7.
    Go back and reread my post #30. Now I am going to add this following comment: Not sinning is a legal standing (1 John 3:4; 1 John 3:6; Romans 4:15) not being under the law (Romans 6:14). Not sinless perfection (1 John 1:8-9, and context).

    Now the promise to those who God saves being, ". . . And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. . . ." -- Hebrews 10:17. The "no" has the explicit meaning of "not in any way," meaning never, the Greek being, ου μη, ou me.
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

  3. #33
    tWebber tabibito's Avatar
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    The overall context of 1 John? It includes the following statement:
    3:8 "He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."

    The immediate context of 1 John 1:8-9
    8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

    Who could claim that he has not sinned? (aside from Christ Jesus, that is).

    But how does the ISV render the passage?

    8 If we say that we do not have any sin, we are deceiving ourselves and we’re not being truthful to ourselves. 9 If we make it our habit to confess our sins, in his faithful righteousness he forgives us for those sins and cleanses us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have never sinned, we make him a liar and his word has no place in us.

    Note that verse 10 in the ISV does highlight the perfect active indicative in rendering ημαρτηκαμεν as "have never sinned." There is no "do not sin" to be found in that verse, and it affects the reading of verse 8. (it is, after all, a matter of full context.)

    So - and again - which sin is it that no-one can stop doing?
    και εκζητησατε με και ευρησετε με οτι ζητησετε με εν ολη καρδία υμων

  4. #34
    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tabibito View Post
    The overall context of 1 John? It includes the following statement:
    3:8 "He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."

    The immediate context of 1 John 1:8-9
    8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

    Who could claim that he has not sinned? (aside from Christ Jesus, that is).

    But how does the ISV render the passage?

    8 If we say that we do not have any sin, we are deceiving ourselves and we’re not being truthful to ourselves. 9 If we make it our habit to confess our sins, in his faithful righteousness he forgives us for those sins and cleanses us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have never sinned, we make him a liar and his word has no place in us.

    Note that verse 10 in the ISV does highlight the perfect active indicative in rendering ημαρτηκαμεν as "have never sinned." There is no "do not sin" to be found in that verse, and it affects the reading of verse 8. (it is, after all, a matter of full context.)

    So - and again - which sin is it that no-one can stop doing?
    My question is can we in this sinful body stop sinning? The need for the promise of 1 John 1:9 suggests not.

    1 John 3:6 reads, ". . . Whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen Him, neither known Him. . . ."

    How do you understand Christians do not sin? It says ". . . whosoever sinneth hath not seen Him, neither known Him. . . ."

    Jesus will say to the false professing "I never knew you." -- Matthew 7:23

    And those who do not abide in Him will be burned (John 15:6).
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

  5. #35
    tWebber tabibito's Avatar
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    Perhaps it would be useful to consider that 1 John 1:9 actually says the sins (direct object) are forgiven/remitted us (indirect object). [Forgiving/remitting/divorcing] acts on sins - we are the beneficiaries of the action, not the recipients.

    Paul does not regard the Christian to be "in the flesh" unless what he says in Romans chapters 7 and 8 should be understood as

    We are not in the flesh (7:5); well, I am in the flesh (7:14) but you are not (8:9) - the problem there being that the "you" are still considered to not be in the flesh.
    Is it is impossible to stop sinning, that impossibility doesn't arise from the disciple being in the flesh - he isn't.

    Look further, at 8:12-13 ...

    But I understand this to be developmental (and rather thoroughly a painful experience.) Nothing I have read leads me to believe that attaining to the state of living without sinning is fast or easy, but that it is a state that follows from perseverance, and only under the aegis of the Holy Spirit. Nor does anything I have read lead me to believe that we will attain to being beyond temptation.
    και εκζητησατε με και ευρησετε με οτι ζητησετε με εν ολη καρδία υμων

  6. #36
    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tabibito View Post
    Perhaps it would be useful to consider that 1 John 1:9 actually says the sins (direct object) are forgiven/remitted us (indirect object). [Forgiving/remitting/divorcing] acts on sins - we are the beneficiaries of the action, not the recipients.

    Paul does not regard the Christian to be "in the flesh" unless what he says in Romans chapters 7 and 8 should be understood as

    We are not in the flesh (7:5); well, I am in the flesh (7:14) but you are not (8:9) - the problem there being that the "you" are still considered to not be in the flesh.
    Is it is impossible to stop sinning, that impossibility doesn't arise from the disciple being in the flesh - he isn't.

    Look further, at 8:12-13 ...

    But I understand this to be developmental (and rather thoroughly a painful experience.) Nothing I have read leads me to believe that attaining to the state of living without sinning is fast or easy, but that it is a state that follows from perseverance, and only under the aegis of the Holy Spirit. Nor does anything I have read lead me to believe that we will attain to being beyond temptation.
    We are waiting the adoption Romans 8:23.
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

  7. #37
    tWebber The Remonstrant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 37818 View Post
    A temporal gift can be lost. Those who hold that one who is saved can yet become lost effectively hold that salvation is yet temporal gift for the Christian.

    "… [Christ] became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey Him; …" (Hebrews 5:9)[*]

    That that salvation is only eternal so long as Christ is obeyed. So salvation is really temporal[,] condition[ed] upon that obedience.

    An understanding which relegates salvation to merit as opposed to grace mak[es] it temporal and not really a gift[,] and not of grace.

    "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: …" (Ephesians 2:8)
    "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." (Romans 4:5)

    [* All scriptural references are taken from the King James Version.]
    Quote Originally Posted by tabibito View Post
    [A]ll of which ignores the requirement for repentance [—] as indicated (but not stated) in Romans 4:7-8 [—] and the misdeeds that lead to death being relegated to past action [(]as indicated by Ephesians 2:1-3[)].
    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    It's always a great idea to build theology on things in the Bible that are "indicated" but not stated.
    Certain texts in the New Testament stress faith and others repentance. In two places they are set alongside each other as equally necessary for the reception of the good news (see Mark 1:15; Acts 20:21). Both are prerequisites for salvation.
    Last edited by The Remonstrant; 12-25-2017 at 06:51 AM.
    [I]f what you have heard from the beginning remains in you, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. … The one who has the Son has the life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. (1 Jn 2.24; 5.12, LEB)

    <https://theremonstrant.blogspot.com>


    Farewell. (Sat., 24 Mar. 2018)

  8. Amen 37818 amen'd this post.
  9. #38
    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Remonstrant View Post
    Certain texts in the New Testament stress faith and others repentance. In two places they are set alongside each other as equally necessary for the reception of the good news (see Mark 1:15; Acts 20:21). Both are prerequisites for salvation.
    Yes. Repentance precedes the faith. And sanctification through the Spirit precedes obedience and faith [belief in the truth] (1 Peter 1:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:13).

    It is the resistance of God's Spirit that men are not sanctified and so do not repent as to believe so they can be regenerated by God's Spirit (Acts 7:51).
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

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