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Thread: A temporal gift.

  1. #21
    tWebber Obsidian's Avatar
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    The singular pronoun doesn't mean that it's talking about individuals. It's obvious from the context that Paul isn't describing any Jews who used to believe in Christ, and then stopped. Instead, he's describing an entire group of people that, on the whole, used to believe, and then stopped. And he specifically says in Chapter 9 that one reason why the Jews have been hardened is to send a message to the gentiles (plural).

    Romans 9:22-24
    What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: and that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?



    Romans 11:30-31
    For as ye (plural) in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their (plural) unbelief: even so have these (plural) also now not believed, that through your (plural) mercy they also (plural) may obtain mercy.

  2. #22
    tWebber tabibito's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 37818 View Post
    A few side notes: I introduced Romans 11:6. Tabibito introduced Romans 11:17-22. The "wild olive tree" is really addressed as to an individual Gentile in v.17-22. Notice the " . . . that I might be graffed in. . . ." v.19.
    Yup: and not only in verse 19

    17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being (ων - ειμι conjugated for 2p singular) a wild olive tree, wert grafted (2ps) in among them, and with them partakest (2ps) of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
    και εκζητησατε με και ευρησετε με οτι ζητησετε με εν ολη καρδία υμων

  3. #23
    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obsidian View Post
    The singular pronoun doesn't mean that it's talking about individuals. It's obvious from the context that Paul isn't describing any Jews who used to believe in Christ, and then stopped. Instead, he's describing an entire group of people that, on the whole, used to believe, and then stopped. And he specifically says in Chapter 9 that one reason why the Jews have been hardened is to send a message to the gentiles (plural).

    Romans 9:22-24
    What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: and that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?



    Romans 11:30-31
    For as ye (plural) in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their (plural) unbelief: even so have these (plural) also now not believed, that through your (plural) mercy they also (plural) may obtain mercy.
    Quote Originally Posted by tabibito View Post
    Yup: and not only in verse 19

    17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being (ων - ειμι conjugated for 2p singular) a wild olive tree, wert grafted (2ps) in among them, and with them partakest (2ps) of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
    In the text v.17-22 the language is used as if addressing an individual.
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

  4. Amen Obsidian amen'd this post.
  5. #24
    tWebber tabibito's Avatar
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    First question

    Did Jesus come to set us free from sin and from the penalty for sin, OR, did he come to set us free from the penalty for sin?
    και εκζητησατε με και ευρησετε με οτι ζητησετε με εν ολη καρδία υμων

  6. #25
    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tabibito View Post
    First question

    Did Jesus come to set us free from sin and from the penalty for sin, OR, did he come to set us free from the penalty for sin?
    Both, to set us free from sin and its penalty.

    ". . . And ye know that He was manifested to take away our sins; and in Him is no sin. . . . _ . . . he that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. . . . " -- 1 John 3:5, . . .8.

    We yet await our adoption, ". . . we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. . . ." -- Romans 8:23, ". . . now we are the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when He shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see Him as He is. . . ." -- 1 John 3:2.
    Last edited by 37818; Yesterday at 02:59 PM.
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

  7. #26
    tWebber
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    Surely faith and work must go together where ever??:-

    James 2:18-26
    Nevertheless, someone will say: “You have faith, and I have works. Show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.”
    19 You believe that there is one God, do you? You are doing quite well. And yet the demons believe and shudder.
    20 But do you care to know, O empty man, that faith without works is useless?
    21 Was not Abraham our father declared righteous by works after he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?
    22 You see that his faith was active along with his works and his faith was perfected by his works,
    23 and the scripture was fulfilled that says: “Abraham put faith in Jehovah, and it was counted to him as righteousness,” and he came to be called Jehovah’s friend.
    24 You see that a man is to be declared righteous by works and not by faith alone.
    25 In the same manner, was not Raʹhab the prostitute also declared righteous by works after she received the messengers hospitably and sent them out by another way?
    26 Indeed, just as the body without spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

  8. #27
    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bibleuser View Post
    Surely faith and work must go together where ever??:-

    James 2:18-26
    Nevertheless, someone will say: “You have faith, and I have works. Show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.”
    19 You believe that there is one God, do you? You are doing quite well. And yet the demons believe and shudder.
    20 But do you care to know, O empty man, that faith without works is useless?
    21 Was not Abraham our father declared righteous by works after he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?
    22 You see that his faith was active along with his works and his faith was perfected by his works,
    23 and the scripture was fulfilled that says: “Abraham put faith in Jehovah, and it was counted to him as righteousness,” and he came to be called Jehovah’s friend.
    24 You see that a man is to be declared righteous by works and not by faith alone.
    25 In the same manner, was not Raʹhab the prostitute also declared righteous by works after she received the messengers hospitably and sent them out by another way?
    26 Indeed, just as the body without spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.
    Your understanding is mistaken. The Justification by works only applies to one who has been already justified without works (see Romans 4:1-5 with James 2:23). Abraham was in fact justified without works (Genesis 15:6) and much later justified by his works (Genesis 22:12) some 37 to 50 years later.
    Last edited by 37818; Yesterday at 05:09 PM.
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

  9. Amen Jedidiah amen'd this post.

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