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This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?

While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.

Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.

Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.

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  • #16
    The "branches" in Romans 11 are talking about races and nations, not individuals. In that book, Paul wasn't arguing against individual Jews who used to believe in Christ, and then somehow later stopped.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by 37818 View Post
      ". . . By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once [for all]. . . . This [is] the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the LORD, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; And their sins and iniquities I will remember no more. Now where remission of these [is, there is] no more offering for sin. . . ." -- Hebrews 10:10, 16-18.
      * Who are the "them" referred to in that passage?
      It would seem that the "them" is "those who are sanctified."

      Hebrews 10:26 For if we choose to go on sinning after we have learned the full truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins

      The balance of the passage gives examples of how that plays out in practice.
      * What does "remission" signify?
      It is of course translated from αφεσις - which signifies removal. Quite obviously, if a person sins (and does not repent of it) the sin is still present - it has not been removed.


      Yes, and that repentance precedes the faith, Acts 20:21, ". . . repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ."
      so "the deeds consistent with repentance" are nothing more than faith? Strange then that "produce" should be a present participle. πρασσοντας - making a practice of.
      αξια της μετανοιας εργα πρασσοντας - making a practice of works appropriate to repentance.

      Regarding those denying the resurrection, ". . . how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? . . . what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die. Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners. Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak [this] to your shame. But some [man] will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? . . ."

      As a warning to Gentiles against Jewish believers, ". . . For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, . . ." v.13.
      General principles "bad company corrupts good morals" and "come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning" apply to the specifics of the problem under review.
      or perhaps you consider that "bad company corrupts good morals; come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning" wouldn't apply to someone who conforms with teachings that advocate promiscuity or idolatry? (Revelation 2:20 for example - thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.)

      I am reasonably confident that you would agree with the assessment that "bad company corrupts good morals; ... stop sinning" is a general principle.


      ". . . And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. . . ." v.6.
      Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

      God extends grace to the undeserving, even to the remnant of Israel ... Again, nothing in what you have posted demonstrates that a person cannot fall from grace, nor has any reference that you provided show that there is no obligation on a believer to be loyal, to commit, and to submit to Christ and to his command.
      1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
      .
      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
      Scripture before Tradition:
      but that won't prevent others from
      taking it upon themselves to deprive you
      of the right to call yourself Christian.

      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
        The "branches" in Romans 11 are talking about races and nations, not individuals. In that book, Paul wasn't arguing against individual Jews who used to believe in Christ, and then somehow later stopped.
        Romans 11 shows that Jewish disciples were not cut off (verse 7) - it does indeed show that the principle applies at the level of individuals. An entire nation is neither saved nor condemned holus bolus.

        Note that 37818 introduced the passage, so, it would seem that he at least found it relevant to the discussion.
        1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
        .
        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
        Scripture before Tradition:
        but that won't prevent others from
        taking it upon themselves to deprive you
        of the right to call yourself Christian.

        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

        Comment


        • #19
          You are the one who introduced it. Stop lying.

          Comment


          • #20
            A few side notes: I introduced Romans 11:6. Tabibito introduced Romans 11:17-22. The "wild olive tree" is really addressed as to an individual Gentile in v.17-22. Notice the " . . . that I might be graffed in. . . ." v.19.
            . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

            . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

            Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

            Comment


            • #21
              The singular pronoun doesn't mean that it's talking about individuals. It's obvious from the context that Paul isn't describing any Jews who used to believe in Christ, and then stopped. Instead, he's describing an entire group of people that, on the whole, used to believe, and then stopped. And he specifically says in Chapter 9 that one reason why the Jews have been hardened is to send a message to the gentiles (plural).

              Romans 9:22-24
              What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: and that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?



              Romans 11:30-31
              For as ye (plural) in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their (plural) unbelief: even so have these (plural) also now not believed, that through your (plural) mercy they also (plural) may obtain mercy.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                A few side notes: I introduced Romans 11:6. Tabibito introduced Romans 11:17-22. The "wild olive tree" is really addressed as to an individual Gentile in v.17-22. Notice the " . . . that I might be graffed in. . . ." v.19.
                Yup: and not only in verse 19

                17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being (ων - ειμι conjugated for 2p singular) a wild olive tree, wert grafted (2ps) in among them, and with them partakest (2ps) of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
                1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                .
                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                Scripture before Tradition:
                but that won't prevent others from
                taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                of the right to call yourself Christian.

                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
                  The singular pronoun doesn't mean that it's talking about individuals. It's obvious from the context that Paul isn't describing any Jews who used to believe in Christ, and then stopped. Instead, he's describing an entire group of people that, on the whole, used to believe, and then stopped. And he specifically says in Chapter 9 that one reason why the Jews have been hardened is to send a message to the gentiles (plural).

                  Romans 9:22-24
                  What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: and that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?



                  Romans 11:30-31
                  For as ye (plural) in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their (plural) unbelief: even so have these (plural) also now not believed, that through your (plural) mercy they also (plural) may obtain mercy.
                  Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                  Yup: and not only in verse 19

                  17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being (ων - ειμι conjugated for 2p singular) a wild olive tree, wert grafted (2ps) in among them, and with them partakest (2ps) of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
                  In the text v.17-22 the language is used as if addressing an individual.
                  . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                  . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                  Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    First question

                    Did Jesus come to set us free from sin and from the penalty for sin, OR, did he come to set us free from the penalty for sin?
                    1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                    .
                    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                    Scripture before Tradition:
                    but that won't prevent others from
                    taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                    of the right to call yourself Christian.

                    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                      First question

                      Did Jesus come to set us free from sin and from the penalty for sin, OR, did he come to set us free from the penalty for sin?
                      Both, to set us free from sin and its penalty.

                      ". . . And ye know that He was manifested to take away our sins; and in Him is no sin. . . . _ . . . he that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. . . . " -- 1 John 3:5, . . .8.

                      We yet await our adoption, ". . . we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. . . ." -- Romans 8:23, ". . . now we are the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when He shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see Him as He is. . . ." -- 1 John 3:2.
                      Last edited by 37818; 12-13-2017, 08:59 AM.
                      . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                      . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                      Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Surely faith and work must go together where ever??:-

                        James 2:18-26
                        Nevertheless, someone will say: “You have faith, and I have works. Show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.”
                        19 You believe that there is one God, do you? You are doing quite well. And yet the demons believe and shudder.
                        20 But do you care to know, O empty man, that faith without works is useless?
                        21 Was not Abraham our father declared righteous by works after he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?
                        22 You see that his faith was active along with his works and his faith was perfected by his works,
                        23 and the scripture was fulfilled that says: “Abraham put faith in Jehovah, and it was counted to him as righteousness,” and he came to be called Jehovah’s friend.
                        24 You see that a man is to be declared righteous by works and not by faith alone.
                        25 In the same manner, was not Raʹhab the prostitute also declared righteous by works after she received the messengers hospitably and sent them out by another way?
                        26 Indeed, just as the body without spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Bibleuser View Post
                          Surely faith and work must go together where ever??:-

                          James 2:18-26
                          Nevertheless, someone will say: “You have faith, and I have works. Show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.”
                          19 You believe that there is one God, do you? You are doing quite well. And yet the demons believe and shudder.
                          20 But do you care to know, O empty man, that faith without works is useless?
                          21 Was not Abraham our father declared righteous by works after he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?
                          22 You see that his faith was active along with his works and his faith was perfected by his works,
                          23 and the scripture was fulfilled that says: “Abraham put faith in Jehovah, and it was counted to him as righteousness,” and he came to be called Jehovah’s friend.
                          24 You see that a man is to be declared righteous by works and not by faith alone.
                          25 In the same manner, was not Raʹhab the prostitute also declared righteous by works after she received the messengers hospitably and sent them out by another way?
                          26 Indeed, just as the body without spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.
                          Your understanding is mistaken. The Justification by works only applies to one who has been already justified without works (see Romans 4:1-5 with James 2:23). Abraham was in fact justified without works (Genesis 15:6) and much later justified by his works (Genesis 22:12) some 37 to 50 years later.
                          Last edited by 37818; 12-13-2017, 11:09 AM.
                          . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                          . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                          Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                            Your understanding is mistaken. The [j]ustification by works only applies to one who has been already justified without works (see Romans 4:1-5 with James 2:23). Abraham was in fact justified without works (Genesis 15:6) and much later justified by his works (Genesis 22:12) some 37 to 50 years later.
                            You are responding to an adherent of the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania.
                            For Neo-Remonstration (Arminian/Remonstrant ruminations): <https://theremonstrant.blogspot.com>

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                              Both, to set us free from sin and its penalty.

                              ". . . And ye know that He was manifested to take away our sins; and in Him is no sin. . . . _ . . . he that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. . . . " -- 1 John 3:5, . . .8.

                              We yet await our adoption, ". . . we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. . . ." -- Romans 8:23, ". . . now we are the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when He shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see Him as He is. . . ." -- 1 John 3:2.
                              And yet, anyone who has that hope (of seeing him as he is) in him purifies himself, just as he also is pure.

                              Second question:
                              How can we have been set free from sin if we are not free to stop sinning?
                              Third question:
                              Which sin is it impossible to stop doing?
                              1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                              .
                              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                              Scripture before Tradition:
                              but that won't prevent others from
                              taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                              of the right to call yourself Christian.

                              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                                And yet, anyone who has that hope (of seeing him as he is) in him purifies himself, just as he also is pure.

                                Second question:
                                How can we have been set free from sin if we are not free to stop sinning?
                                Third question:
                                Which sin is it impossible to stop doing?
                                The 1 John 3:3 answer is found in 1 John 1:7-2:2, ". . . But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. . . ."

                                The Apostle Paul wrote, ". . . O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. . . . _ . . . we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. . . ." -- Romans 7:24-8:2, . . . 23. ". . . For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself. . . ." -- Philippians 3:20-21.

                                ". . . when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. . . ." -- 1 John 3:2.

                                ". . .But with the flesh the law of sin. . . ." -- Romans 7:25. ". . . Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. . . ." -- 1 John 3:4. ". . . For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. . . ." Galatians 3:10; Deuteronomy 27:26. ". . . For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. . . ." -- James 2:10. ". . . Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. . . ." -- Romans 3;19.

                                ". . . For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. . . ." -- Romans 6:14. ". . . But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. . . ." -- Galatians 5:18. ". . . who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. . . ." -- Romans 8:1. ". . . Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. . . ." -- Galatians 5:16.

                                Which brings us back to 1 John 1:7-2:2. Ephesians 2:8-10. Romans 4:5. Romans 11:6. etc.
                                . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                                . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                                Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                                Comment

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