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A temporal gift.

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  • A temporal gift.

    A temporal gift can be lost. Those who hold that one who is saved can yet become lost effectively hold that salvation is yet temporal gift for the Christian.

    ". . . the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey Him; . . ." -- Hebrews 5:9.

    That that salvation is only eternal so long as Christ is obeyed. So salvation is really temporal conditional upon that obedience.

    An understanding which relegates salvation to merit as opposed to grace making it temporal and not really a gift and not of grace.

    ". . . For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: . . ." -- Ephesians 2:8.
    ". . . But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. . . ." -- Romans 4:5.
    . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

  • #2
    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

    Comment


    • #3
      Since I have returned (temporarily, at least), have you taken it upon yourself to bait me on the topic of conditional security once more, 37818?
      For Neo-Remonstration (Arminian/Remonstrant ruminations): <https://theremonstrant.blogspot.com>

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by 37818 View Post
        A temporal gift can be lost. Those who hold that one who is saved can yet become lost effectively hold that salvation is yet temporal gift for the Christian.

        ". . . the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey Him; . . ." -- Hebrews 5:9.

        That that salvation is only eternal so long as Christ is obeyed. So salvation is really temporal conditional upon that obedience.

        An understanding which relegates salvation to merit as opposed to grace making it temporal and not really a gift and not of grace.

        ". . . For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: . . ." -- Ephesians 2:8.
        ". . . But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. . . ." -- Romans 4:5.
        all of which ignores the requirement for repentance - as indicated (but not stated) in Romans 4:7-8 - and the misdeeds that lead to death being relegated to past action - as indicated by Ephesians 2:1-3.
        1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
        .
        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
        Scripture before Tradition:
        but that won't prevent others from
        taking it upon themselves to deprive you
        of the right to call yourself Christian.

        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

        Comment


        • #5
          The fact that Christians can earn rewards that will never be lost is supposed to be a key motivation behind living a godly life. If eternal life were not eternal, then this passage would make zero sense.

          Matthew 6:19-21
          Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: for where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

          Tabibito and Remonstrant are not teaching Christianity. They are teaching Moth-and-rustianity.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by tabibito View Post
            all of which ignores the requirement for repentance - as indicated (but not stated) in Romans 4:7-8 - and the misdeeds that lead to death being relegated to past action - as indicated by Ephesians 2:1-3.
            It's always a great idea to build theology on things in the Bible that are "indicated" but not stated.
            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by tabibito View Post
              all of which ignores the requirement for repentance - as indicated (but not stated) in Romans 4:7-8 - and the misdeeds that lead to death being relegated to past action - as indicated by Ephesians 2:1-3.
              Repentance was not the issue. For the record Biblical repentance precedes the faith (Mark 1:15). And is to be from trusting in works (Hebrews 6:1).

              And to Ephesians 2:1-3 we can add Ephesians 5:5, Galatians 5:19-21 and Revelation 21:8.
              Last edited by 37818; 12-05-2017, 08:32 AM.
              . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

              . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

              Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by The Remonstrant View Post
                Since I have returned (temporarily, at least), have you taken it upon yourself to bait me on the topic of conditional security once more, 37818?
                It is nice to see you back, even if it is for a temporal visit. My reason for the thread is in its title. A temporal gift. If in Biblical salvation one who professes salvation can loose it between then and death - then that salvation is not yet eternal salvation. It is really that simple. The meaning of to "obey Him" to have eternal salvation is relevant.

                For the record, I am of the persuasion to "obey Him" involves doing His Fathers will (John 7:16; Matthew 7:21). That eternal salvation can only be had as an wholly unmerited gift.
                Last edited by 37818; 12-05-2017, 08:24 AM.
                . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                  It's always a great idea to build theology on things in the Bible that are "indicated" but not stated.
                  So 'twould seem. Flatly stated (according to the gospels) by Jesus - "not all who call me lord will enter heaven, but those who do the will of my father."

                  The "indications" that I referred to are in the same passages that are being mis-applied ... enough to make the interpretations by 37818 uncertain. And his interpretations are in conflict with explicit statements.

                  Salvation is by grace - might indicate that it can't be lost. (if we go by indications) but the explicit statements throughout the NT regarding salvation are that maintenance is the responsibility of the recipient and cannot be achieved without the Holy Spirit's intervention.
                  1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                  .
                  ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                  Scripture before Tradition:
                  but that won't prevent others from
                  taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                  of the right to call yourself Christian.

                  ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                    So 'twould seem. Flatly stated (according to the gospels) by Jesus - "not all who call me lord will enter heaven, but those who do the will of my father."

                    The "indications" that I referred to are in the same passages that are being mis-applied ... enough to make the interpretations by 37818 uncertain. And his interpretations are in conflict with explicit statements.

                    Salvation is by grace - might indicate that it can't be lost. (if we go by indications) but the explicit statements throughout the NT regarding salvation are that maintenance is the responsibility of the recipient and cannot be achieved without the Holy Spirit's intervention.
                    ". . . Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. . . .
                    . . . Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." -- Matthew 7:15, . . . 21-23.

                    They never where Christ's to begin with - trusting in their own merit. Not in God's grace.

                    [1 John 5:12; Romans 8:9; 2 Corinthians 13:5; John 6:37, 44-45; Hebrews 13:5; 1 John 2:19]
                    . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      . . . Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." -- Matthew 7:15, . . . 21-23.

                      According to that - do people who fail to do the will of the Father have access to heaven?

                      1 Cor 6:9 you know that wicked people will not inherit the kingdom of God, don’t you? Stop deceiving yourselves! Sexually immoral people, idolaters, adulterers, male prostitutes, homosexuals, 10 thieves, greedy people, drunks, slanderers, and robbers will not inherit the kingdom of God. 11 That is what some of you were!

                      Does a thief have an inheritance in heaven? or an idolater? or even a person who is merely greedy?

                      Eph 5:5 you know very well that no immoral or impure person, or anyone who is greedy (that is, an idolater), has an inheritance in the kingdom of the Messiah and of God.

                      Col 3: 5-6 So put to death your worldly impulses: sexual sin, impurity, passion, evil desire, and greed (which is idolatry). 6 It is because of these things that the wrath of God is coming on those who are disobedient.

                      None of your citations obviates the requirement for obedience:
                      Matthew 28:20, Luke 11:28, Acts 5:32, 1 Cor 7:19, 2 Thess 1:8b, Heb 5:9,
                      1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                      .
                      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                      Scripture before Tradition:
                      but that won't prevent others from
                      taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                      of the right to call yourself Christian.

                      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
                        The fact that Christians can earn rewards that will never be lost is supposed to be a key motivation behind living a godly life. If eternal life were not eternal, then this passage would make zero sense.

                        Matthew 6:19-21
                        Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: for where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

                        Tabibito and Remonstrant are not teaching Christianity. They are teaching Moth-and-rustianity.
                        For Remonstrant I cannot speak. As for myself, I acknowledge and teach that Christ requires of the believer loyalty, commitment, and submission to himself and to his command. If anyone has a problem with that, his problem is not with me.
                        1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                        .
                        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                        Scripture before Tradition:
                        but that won't prevent others from
                        taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                        of the right to call yourself Christian.

                        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                          . . . Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." -- Matthew 7:15, . . . 21-23.

                          According to that - do people who fail to do the will of the Father have access to heaven?

                          1 Cor 6:9 you know that wicked people will not inherit the kingdom of God, don’t you? Stop deceiving yourselves! Sexually immoral people, idolaters, adulterers, male prostitutes, homosexuals, 10 thieves, greedy people, drunks, slanderers, and robbers will not inherit the kingdom of God. 11 That is what some of you were!

                          Does a thief have an inheritance in heaven? or an idolater? or even a person who is merely greedy?

                          Eph 5:5 you know very well that no immoral or impure person, or anyone who is greedy (that is, an idolater), has an inheritance in the kingdom of the Messiah and of God.

                          Col 3: 5-6 So put to death your worldly impulses: sexual sin, impurity, passion, evil desire, and greed (which is idolatry). 6 It is because of these things that the wrath of God is coming on those who are disobedient.

                          None of your citations obviates the requirement for obedience:
                          Matthew 28:20, Luke 11:28, Acts 5:32, 1 Cor 7:19, 2 Thess 1:8b, Heb 5:9,
                          ". . . In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: . . ."


                          How do you think one obeys grace?

                          ". . . And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. . . ." -- Romans 11:6.
                          . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                          . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                          Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            How do you think one obeys grace?
                            "falls from" not "obeys."

                            Hebrews 10:26 For if we choose to go on sinning after we have learned the full truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but only a terrifying prospect of judgment and a raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who violates the Law of Moses dies without mercy “on the testimony of two or three witnesses.” 29 How much more severe a punishment do you think that person deserves who tramples on God’s Son, treats as common the blood of the covenant by which it was sanctified, and insults the Spirit of grace?

                            Luke citing Paul Acts 26:20 Instead, I first told the people in Damascus and Jerusalem, then all the people in Judea—and after that the gentiles—to repent, turn to God, and perform deeds that are consistent with such repentance.

                            And then there are Paul's own words; even Paul himself

                            1 Cor 15:34 Come back to your senses as you should, and stop sinning! For some of you—I say this to your shame—don’t fully know God.

                            Romans 11:17-22 17 Now if some of the branches have been broken off, and you, a wild olive branch, have been grafted in their place to share the rich root of the olive tree, 18 do not boast about being better than the other branches. If you boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 Then you will say, “Branches were cut off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 That’s right! They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you remain only because of faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid! 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he certainly will not spare you, either. 22 Consider, then, the kindness and severity of God: his severity toward those who fell, but God’s kindness toward you—if you continue receiving his kindness. Otherwise, you too will be cut off.
                            1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                            .
                            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                            Scripture before Tradition:
                            but that won't prevent others from
                            taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                            of the right to call yourself Christian.

                            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                              "falls from" not "obeys."

                              Hebrews 10:26 For if we choose to go on sinning after we have learned the full truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but only a terrifying prospect of judgment and a raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who violates the Law of Moses dies without mercy “on the testimony of two or three witnesses.” 29 How much more severe a punishment do you think that person deserves who tramples on God’s Son, treats as common the blood of the covenant by which it was sanctified, and insults the Spirit of grace?
                              ". . . By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once [for all]. . . . This [is] the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the LORD, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; And their sins and iniquities I will remember no more. Now where remission of these [is, there is] no more offering for sin. . . ." -- Hebrews 10:10, 16-18.


                              Luke citing Paul Acts 26:20 Instead, I first told the people in Damascus and Jerusalem, then all the people in Judea—and after that the gentiles—to repent, turn to God, and perform deeds that are consistent with such repentance.
                              Yes, and that repentance precedes the faith, Acts 20:21, ". . . repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ."

                              And then there are Paul's own words; even Paul himself

                              1 Cor 15:34 Come back to your senses as you should, and stop sinning! For some of you—I say this to your shame—don’t fully know God.
                              Regarding those denying the resurrection, ". . . how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? . . . what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die. Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners. Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak [this] to your shame. But some [man] will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? . . ."

                              Romans 11:17-22 17 Now if some of the branches have been broken off, and you, a wild olive branch, have been grafted in their place to share the rich root of the olive tree, 18 do not boast about being better than the other branches. If you boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 Then you will say, “Branches were cut off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 That’s right! They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you remain only because of faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid! 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he certainly will not spare you, either. 22 Consider, then, the kindness and severity of God: his severity toward those who fell, but God’s kindness toward you—if you continue receiving his kindness. Otherwise, you too will be cut off.
                              As a warning to Gentiles against Jewish believers, ". . . For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, . . ." v.13.


                              ". . . And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. . . ." v.6.
                              . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                              . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                              Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                              Comment

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