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Thread: A temporal gift.

  1. #11
    tWebber tabibito's Avatar
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    . . . Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." -- Matthew 7:15, . . . 21-23.

    According to that - do people who fail to do the will of the Father have access to heaven?

    1 Cor 6:9 you know that wicked people will not inherit the kingdom of God, don’t you? Stop deceiving yourselves! Sexually immoral people, idolaters, adulterers, male prostitutes, homosexuals, 10 thieves, greedy people, drunks, slanderers, and robbers will not inherit the kingdom of God. 11 That is what some of you were!

    Does a thief have an inheritance in heaven? or an idolater? or even a person who is merely greedy?

    Eph 5:5 you know very well that no immoral or impure person, or anyone who is greedy (that is, an idolater), has an inheritance in the kingdom of the Messiah and of God.

    Col 3: 5-6 So put to death your worldly impulses: sexual sin, impurity, passion, evil desire, and greed (which is idolatry). 6 It is because of these things that the wrath of God is coming on those who are disobedient.

    None of your citations obviates the requirement for obedience:
    Matthew 28:20, Luke 11:28, Acts 5:32, 1 Cor 7:19, 2 Thess 1:8b, Heb 5:9,
    και εκζητησατε με και ευρησετε με οτι ζητησετε με εν ολη καρδία υμων

  2. #12
    tWebber tabibito's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obsidian View Post
    The fact that Christians can earn rewards that will never be lost is supposed to be a key motivation behind living a godly life. If eternal life were not eternal, then this passage would make zero sense.

    Matthew 6:19-21
    Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: for where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

    Tabibito and Remonstrant are not teaching Christianity. They are teaching Moth-and-rustianity.
    For Remonstrant I cannot speak. As for myself, I acknowledge and teach that Christ requires of the believer loyalty, commitment, and submission to himself and to his command. If anyone has a problem with that, his problem is not with me.
    και εκζητησατε με και ευρησετε με οτι ζητησετε με εν ολη καρδία υμων

  3. Amen The Remonstrant, Rushing Jaws amen'd this post.
  4. #13
    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tabibito View Post
    . . . Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." -- Matthew 7:15, . . . 21-23.

    According to that - do people who fail to do the will of the Father have access to heaven?

    1 Cor 6:9 you know that wicked people will not inherit the kingdom of God, don’t you? Stop deceiving yourselves! Sexually immoral people, idolaters, adulterers, male prostitutes, homosexuals, 10 thieves, greedy people, drunks, slanderers, and robbers will not inherit the kingdom of God. 11 That is what some of you were!

    Does a thief have an inheritance in heaven? or an idolater? or even a person who is merely greedy?

    Eph 5:5 you know very well that no immoral or impure person, or anyone who is greedy (that is, an idolater), has an inheritance in the kingdom of the Messiah and of God.

    Col 3: 5-6 So put to death your worldly impulses: sexual sin, impurity, passion, evil desire, and greed (which is idolatry). 6 It is because of these things that the wrath of God is coming on those who are disobedient.

    None of your citations obviates the requirement for obedience:
    Matthew 28:20, Luke 11:28, Acts 5:32, 1 Cor 7:19, 2 Thess 1:8b, Heb 5:9,
    ". . . In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: . . ."


    How do you think one obeys grace?

    ". . . And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. . . ." -- Romans 11:6.
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

  5. #14
    tWebber tabibito's Avatar
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    How do you think one obeys grace?
    "falls from" not "obeys."

    Hebrews 10:26 For if we choose to go on sinning after we have learned the full truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but only a terrifying prospect of judgment and a raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who violates the Law of Moses dies without mercy “on the testimony of two or three witnesses.” 29 How much more severe a punishment do you think that person deserves who tramples on God’s Son, treats as common the blood of the covenant by which it was sanctified, and insults the Spirit of grace?

    Luke citing Paul Acts 26:20 Instead, I first told the people in Damascus and Jerusalem, then all the people in Judea—and after that the gentiles—to repent, turn to God, and perform deeds that are consistent with such repentance.

    And then there are Paul's own words; even Paul himself

    1 Cor 15:34 Come back to your senses as you should, and stop sinning! For some of you—I say this to your shame—don’t fully know God.

    Romans 11:17-22 17 Now if some of the branches have been broken off, and you, a wild olive branch, have been grafted in their place to share the rich root of the olive tree, 18 do not boast about being better than the other branches. If you boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 Then you will say, “Branches were cut off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 That’s right! They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you remain only because of faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid! 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he certainly will not spare you, either. 22 Consider, then, the kindness and severity of God: his severity toward those who fell, but God’s kindness toward you—if you continue receiving his kindness. Otherwise, you too will be cut off.
    και εκζητησατε με και ευρησετε με οτι ζητησετε με εν ολη καρδία υμων

  6. #15
    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tabibito View Post
    "falls from" not "obeys."

    Hebrews 10:26 For if we choose to go on sinning after we have learned the full truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but only a terrifying prospect of judgment and a raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who violates the Law of Moses dies without mercy “on the testimony of two or three witnesses.” 29 How much more severe a punishment do you think that person deserves who tramples on God’s Son, treats as common the blood of the covenant by which it was sanctified, and insults the Spirit of grace?
    ". . . By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once [for all]. . . . This [is] the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the LORD, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; And their sins and iniquities I will remember no more. Now where remission of these [is, there is] no more offering for sin. . . ." -- Hebrews 10:10, 16-18.


    Luke citing Paul Acts 26:20 Instead, I first told the people in Damascus and Jerusalem, then all the people in Judea—and after that the gentiles—to repent, turn to God, and perform deeds that are consistent with such repentance.
    Yes, and that repentance precedes the faith, Acts 20:21, ". . . repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ."

    And then there are Paul's own words; even Paul himself

    1 Cor 15:34 Come back to your senses as you should, and stop sinning! For some of you—I say this to your shame—don’t fully know God.
    Regarding those denying the resurrection, ". . . how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? . . . what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die. Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners. Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak [this] to your shame. But some [man] will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? . . ."

    Romans 11:17-22 17 Now if some of the branches have been broken off, and you, a wild olive branch, have been grafted in their place to share the rich root of the olive tree, 18 do not boast about being better than the other branches. If you boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 Then you will say, “Branches were cut off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 That’s right! They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you remain only because of faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid! 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he certainly will not spare you, either. 22 Consider, then, the kindness and severity of God: his severity toward those who fell, but God’s kindness toward you—if you continue receiving his kindness. Otherwise, you too will be cut off.
    As a warning to Gentiles against Jewish believers, ". . . For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, . . ." v.13.


    ". . . And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. . . ." v.6.
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

  7. #16
    tWebber Obsidian's Avatar
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    The "branches" in Romans 11 are talking about races and nations, not individuals. In that book, Paul wasn't arguing against individual Jews who used to believe in Christ, and then somehow later stopped.

  8. #17
    tWebber tabibito's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 37818 View Post
    ". . . By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once [for all]. . . . This [is] the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the LORD, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; And their sins and iniquities I will remember no more. Now where remission of these [is, there is] no more offering for sin. . . ." -- Hebrews 10:10, 16-18.
    * Who are the "them" referred to in that passage?
    It would seem that the "them" is "those who are sanctified."

    Hebrews 10:26 For if we choose to go on sinning after we have learned the full truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins

    The balance of the passage gives examples of how that plays out in practice.
    * What does "remission" signify?
    It is of course translated from αφεσις - which signifies removal. Quite obviously, if a person sins (and does not repent of it) the sin is still present - it has not been removed.


    Yes, and that repentance precedes the faith, Acts 20:21, ". . . repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ."
    so "the deeds consistent with repentance" are nothing more than faith? Strange then that "produce" should be a present participle. πρασσοντας - making a practice of.
    αξια της μετανοιας εργα πρασσοντας - making a practice of works appropriate to repentance.

    Regarding those denying the resurrection, ". . . how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? . . . what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die. Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners. Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak [this] to your shame. But some [man] will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? . . ."

    As a warning to Gentiles against Jewish believers, ". . . For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, . . ." v.13.
    General principles "bad company corrupts good morals" and "come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning" apply to the specifics of the problem under review.
    or perhaps you consider that "bad company corrupts good morals; come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning" wouldn't apply to someone who conforms with teachings that advocate promiscuity or idolatry? (Revelation 2:20 for example - thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.)

    I am reasonably confident that you would agree with the assessment that "bad company corrupts good morals; ... stop sinning" is a general principle.


    ". . . And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. . . ." v.6.
    Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

    God extends grace to the undeserving, even to the remnant of Israel ... Again, nothing in what you have posted demonstrates that a person cannot fall from grace, nor has any reference that you provided show that there is no obligation on a believer to be loyal, to commit, and to submit to Christ and to his command.
    και εκζητησατε με και ευρησετε με οτι ζητησετε με εν ολη καρδία υμων

  9. #18
    tWebber tabibito's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obsidian View Post
    The "branches" in Romans 11 are talking about races and nations, not individuals. In that book, Paul wasn't arguing against individual Jews who used to believe in Christ, and then somehow later stopped.
    Romans 11 shows that Jewish disciples were not cut off (verse 7) - it does indeed show that the principle applies at the level of individuals. An entire nation is neither saved nor condemned holus bolus.

    Note that 37818 introduced the passage, so, it would seem that he at least found it relevant to the discussion.
    και εκζητησατε με και ευρησετε με οτι ζητησετε με εν ολη καρδία υμων

  10. Amen The Remonstrant amen'd this post.
  11. #19
    tWebber Obsidian's Avatar
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    You are the one who introduced it. Stop lying.

  12. #20
    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    A few side notes: I introduced Romans 11:6. Tabibito introduced Romans 11:17-22. The "wild olive tree" is really addressed as to an individual Gentile in v.17-22. Notice the " . . . that I might be graffed in. . . ." v.19.
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

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