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Thread: A temporal gift.

  1. #21
    tWebber Obsidian's Avatar
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    The singular pronoun doesn't mean that it's talking about individuals. It's obvious from the context that Paul isn't describing any Jews who used to believe in Christ, and then stopped. Instead, he's describing an entire group of people that, on the whole, used to believe, and then stopped. And he specifically says in Chapter 9 that one reason why the Jews have been hardened is to send a message to the gentiles (plural).

    Romans 9:22-24
    What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: and that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?



    Romans 11:30-31
    For as ye (plural) in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their (plural) unbelief: even so have these (plural) also now not believed, that through your (plural) mercy they also (plural) may obtain mercy.

  2. #22
    tWebber tabibito's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 37818 View Post
    A few side notes: I introduced Romans 11:6. Tabibito introduced Romans 11:17-22. The "wild olive tree" is really addressed as to an individual Gentile in v.17-22. Notice the " . . . that I might be graffed in. . . ." v.19.
    Yup: and not only in verse 19

    17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being (ων - ειμι conjugated for 2p singular) a wild olive tree, wert grafted (2ps) in among them, and with them partakest (2ps) of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
    και εκζητησατε με και ευρησετε με οτι ζητησετε με εν ολη καρδία υμων

  3. #23
    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obsidian View Post
    The singular pronoun doesn't mean that it's talking about individuals. It's obvious from the context that Paul isn't describing any Jews who used to believe in Christ, and then stopped. Instead, he's describing an entire group of people that, on the whole, used to believe, and then stopped. And he specifically says in Chapter 9 that one reason why the Jews have been hardened is to send a message to the gentiles (plural).

    Romans 9:22-24
    What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: and that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?



    Romans 11:30-31
    For as ye (plural) in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their (plural) unbelief: even so have these (plural) also now not believed, that through your (plural) mercy they also (plural) may obtain mercy.
    Quote Originally Posted by tabibito View Post
    Yup: and not only in verse 19

    17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being (ων - ειμι conjugated for 2p singular) a wild olive tree, wert grafted (2ps) in among them, and with them partakest (2ps) of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
    In the text v.17-22 the language is used as if addressing an individual.
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

  4. Amen Obsidian amen'd this post.
  5. #24
    tWebber tabibito's Avatar
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    First question

    Did Jesus come to set us free from sin and from the penalty for sin, OR, did he come to set us free from the penalty for sin?
    και εκζητησατε με και ευρησετε με οτι ζητησετε με εν ολη καρδία υμων

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    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tabibito View Post
    First question

    Did Jesus come to set us free from sin and from the penalty for sin, OR, did he come to set us free from the penalty for sin?
    Both, to set us free from sin and its penalty.

    ". . . And ye know that He was manifested to take away our sins; and in Him is no sin. . . . _ . . . he that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. . . . " -- 1 John 3:5, . . .8.

    We yet await our adoption, ". . . we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. . . ." -- Romans 8:23, ". . . now we are the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when He shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see Him as He is. . . ." -- 1 John 3:2.
    Last edited by 37818; 12-13-2017 at 07:59 AM.
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

  7. Amen Obsidian amen'd this post.
  8. #26
    tWebber
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    Surely faith and work must go together where ever??:-

    James 2:18-26
    Nevertheless, someone will say: “You have faith, and I have works. Show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.”
    19 You believe that there is one God, do you? You are doing quite well. And yet the demons believe and shudder.
    20 But do you care to know, O empty man, that faith without works is useless?
    21 Was not Abraham our father declared righteous by works after he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?
    22 You see that his faith was active along with his works and his faith was perfected by his works,
    23 and the scripture was fulfilled that says: “Abraham put faith in Jehovah, and it was counted to him as righteousness,” and he came to be called Jehovah’s friend.
    24 You see that a man is to be declared righteous by works and not by faith alone.
    25 In the same manner, was not Raʹhab the prostitute also declared righteous by works after she received the messengers hospitably and sent them out by another way?
    26 Indeed, just as the body without spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

  9. #27
    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bibleuser View Post
    Surely faith and work must go together where ever??:-

    James 2:18-26
    Nevertheless, someone will say: “You have faith, and I have works. Show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.”
    19 You believe that there is one God, do you? You are doing quite well. And yet the demons believe and shudder.
    20 But do you care to know, O empty man, that faith without works is useless?
    21 Was not Abraham our father declared righteous by works after he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?
    22 You see that his faith was active along with his works and his faith was perfected by his works,
    23 and the scripture was fulfilled that says: “Abraham put faith in Jehovah, and it was counted to him as righteousness,” and he came to be called Jehovah’s friend.
    24 You see that a man is to be declared righteous by works and not by faith alone.
    25 In the same manner, was not Raʹhab the prostitute also declared righteous by works after she received the messengers hospitably and sent them out by another way?
    26 Indeed, just as the body without spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.
    Your understanding is mistaken. The Justification by works only applies to one who has been already justified without works (see Romans 4:1-5 with James 2:23). Abraham was in fact justified without works (Genesis 15:6) and much later justified by his works (Genesis 22:12) some 37 to 50 years later.
    Last edited by 37818; 12-13-2017 at 10:09 AM.
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

  10. Amen Jedidiah, Obsidian amen'd this post.
  11. #28
    tWebber The Remonstrant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 37818 View Post
    Your understanding is mistaken. The [j]ustification by works only applies to one who has been already justified without works (see Romans 4:1-5 with James 2:23). Abraham was in fact justified without works (Genesis 15:6) and much later justified by his works (Genesis 22:12) some 37 to 50 years later.
    You are responding to an adherent of the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania.
    [I]f what you have heard from the beginning remains in you, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. … The one who has the Son has the life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. (1 Jn 2.24; 5.12, LEB)

    <https://theremonstrant.blogspot.com>


    Farewell. (Sat., 24 Mar. 2018)

  12. #29
    tWebber tabibito's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 37818 View Post
    Both, to set us free from sin and its penalty.

    ". . . And ye know that He was manifested to take away our sins; and in Him is no sin. . . . _ . . . he that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. . . . " -- 1 John 3:5, . . .8.

    We yet await our adoption, ". . . we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. . . ." -- Romans 8:23, ". . . now we are the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when He shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see Him as He is. . . ." -- 1 John 3:2.
    And yet, anyone who has that hope (of seeing him as he is) in him purifies himself, just as he also is pure.

    Second question:
    How can we have been set free from sin if we are not free to stop sinning?
    Third question:
    Which sin is it impossible to stop doing?
    και εκζητησατε με και ευρησετε με οτι ζητησετε με εν ολη καρδία υμων

  13. #30
    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tabibito View Post
    And yet, anyone who has that hope (of seeing him as he is) in him purifies himself, just as he also is pure.

    Second question:
    How can we have been set free from sin if we are not free to stop sinning?
    Third question:
    Which sin is it impossible to stop doing?
    The 1 John 3:3 answer is found in 1 John 1:7-2:2, ". . . But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. . . ."

    The Apostle Paul wrote, ". . . O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. . . . _ . . . we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. . . ." -- Romans 7:24-8:2, . . . 23. ". . . For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself. . . ." -- Philippians 3:20-21.

    ". . . when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. . . ." -- 1 John 3:2.

    ". . .But with the flesh the law of sin. . . ." -- Romans 7:25. ". . . Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. . . ." -- 1 John 3:4. ". . . For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. . . ." Galatians 3:10; Deuteronomy 27:26. ". . . For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. . . ." -- James 2:10. ". . . Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. . . ." -- Romans 3;19.

    ". . . For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. . . ." -- Romans 6:14. ". . . But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. . . ." -- Galatians 5:18. ". . . who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. . . ." -- Romans 8:1. ". . . Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. . . ." -- Galatians 5:16.

    Which brings us back to 1 John 1:7-2:2. Ephesians 2:8-10. Romans 4:5. Romans 11:6. etc.
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

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